By David Webb
Lanesboro, MN
Dunning–Kruger strikes again and again. Mr Erding’s and Thorson’s one-sided presentations of cherry-picked historical and “alternative” facts do not fully explain and certainly do not negate the actual horrific facts of the situation on the ground in Gaza. Homes, hospitals, and schools bombed. People starving. Journalists, nurses, paramedics, and doctors killed. Escaped or released hostages killed by IDF snipers (“The hostages weren’t our top priority.” – Yuval Abraham 12/21/23). Three times as many Palestinian children slaughtered as adult Americans killed on 9/11. Ten times as many Palestinian children slaughtered as Israelis killed on 10/7. Countless more orphaned and physically and mentally maimed for life. Children having their mangled limbs amputated without anesthesia. To my mind, these do not constitute “acceptable collateral damage,” but you are, of course, entitled to your different opinion.
Few of the children of Abraham (i.e., Arabs and Jews) seem to pay much heed to the “Thou shalt not kill” commandment. My actual intention in writing the missive to which you object was that it might possibly be “eye-opening” for some and not as you surmised to persuade anyone “to take sides” in this century-old conflict. I believe that given all the facts, open-minded people will come to their own conclusions.
To answer my own previous rhetorical question, I think Palestinians presently have essentially three options:
1. Accept their plight, do nothing, say nothing, die slowly. (Even before 10/7, Gaza was projected to become “unlivable” in a few years. The World Bank put unemployment at 53% and 67% for young Gazans. Almost half the population was subsisting on less than $5.50 per day.)
2. Protest peacefully, e.g., by marching and BDS, be vilified for being uppity and unreasonable, continue to die slowly, occasionally punctuated by sudden deaths at the hands of indignant settlers and IDF soldiers.
3. Rebel, and given Israel’s U.S. taxpayer funded overwhelming military superiority, die quickly en masse.
As a traditionally conservative person, I do not countenance war atrocities, genocide, or ethnic cleansing. If you are an “ends justify the means” person, own it. Just don’t try to downplay the consequences of the means which you contend are justified.
David R Webb MD says
Mr Erding:
1. Please kindly refrain from branding anyone with whom you disagree as leftist. You are entitled to your private opinion, but I do not consider myself a “lefty.” Being skeptical of propaganda and giving credence to independent investigative journalism before drawing conclusions is not leftist, it is critical thinking. Denouncing genocide, ethnic cleansing, and spurious “collateral damage” is not leftist, it is justice. Indeed, conservative scholars such as David Brooks, William F. Buckley, Roger Scruton, and George Will would argue that deference to authority, including international authority, adherence to the rule of law, including international law, and respect for human life, regardless of nationality, are fundamental conservative values.
2. If you have lived and worked in Muslim or Arab countries, or are a scholar with a doctorate in history, political science, or Middle Eastern studies, or are a former US Foreign Service Middle East Desk Officer, or are a former CIA analyst, please accept my apology for failing to recognize your expertise. If not, your opinions, though stated with great authority, are no more cogent than those of the guy sitting on the next stool. Since you brought it up, I might add that, yes, I have lived and worked in an Arab country, and not as one simply deployed there in a cohort of Americans. I understood and spoke three of the nonEnglish languages of the country and over the years have continued to correspond with friends and colleagues from there.
3. I would also comment on my civilian experience with urban warfare, having lived through two failed coups d’etat carried out in the capital city where I was working. Mercifully only a matter of a few days and with much less carnage than with the Israeli assault on Gaza. Nonetheless, witnessing tanks rumbling down the streets, strafing fighter jets flying overhead at rooftop level, automatic weapons fire throughout the nights, thousands of civilians jamming all the roads leaving the city by whatever means they had, all were scary enough for me, as well as for the natives. Fortunately, the individuals for whom I was responsible and I came through unscathed.
4. Lastly, not surprisingly, you completely missed the point of my earlier letter. Even were your grossly distorted perception of Palestinian/Israeli history entirely accurate, it would not justify the crimes currently being carried out by the Israeli Defense Force. There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing thousands of innocent mothers and children.
Thomas E.H. says
//Scott Ewalt says I need a history lesson on the region . He goes on to state the obvious regarding the history of the area spanning thousands of years and multiple ethnic groups, then inexplicably veering off into La La Land by naming everyone but the Jews as having been indigenous residents, completely ignoring biblical and archaeologic history of Jewish occupancy for millennia.//
Indeed, Jews occupied the land of Canaan when the Philistines did. Of course, peoples and cultures preceded either party. He provided a deeper timeline of non-Jew inhabitance of the region. Yes, he omitted Jewish history, but as you say yourself, that would be stating the obvious, yes?
You see, Jeff, the issue is that you stated in your original article: //But didn’t the Jews expel the “Palestinians” from there ancestral homelands? No. Because “Palestinian” is a made up term and there never has been a nation called Palestine.//
This is rather puzzling, because “Palestine” is derived from the Greek name for the land of the Philistines… also known as Philistia. Hardly a made up term for a made up nation. Even the Romans had a name for the region: “Syrian Palaestina”. If a land is named/recognized as something (even by another nation), then the people and culture of that land would match correspondingly, i.e. Palestine and Palestinians.
//He then subjects us to a bizarre version of terrorist activity, blaming “Zionist Terrorists” for murderous actions and completely omitting the murder of hundreds of peaceful Jewish farmers, Israeli athletes at Munich in 1972, thousands of terrorist bombings and other acts of aggression against innocent Israeli citizens…. not to mention thousands of rockets launched from Gaza into Israeli territory with no regard for who is harmed.//
Let’s read this tidbit from the Encyclopaedia Britannica “In 1988 the Fatah-led PLO declared independence as a government-in-exile, recognized the existence of the State of Israel, rejected terrorism, and embraced a two-state solution. It pursued negotiations with Israel, and in 1993 Israel and the PLO signed a peace agreement (the Oslo Accords). The following year the Palestinian Authority (PA) was established to govern the emerging Palestinian autonomous regions, and Gaza city became Fatah headquarters. Elections were held in PA-administered areas in 1996. Arafat won the presidency, and Fatah captured a majority of seats within the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC); Hamas did not participate in the elections. Arafat remained president of the PA until his death in 2004.”
Once again, the pot calling the kettle black? Did you not yourself omit, in your original article, all of the “terrorist” activities mentioned in Mr. Ewalt? Additionally, one should not equate the deeds of Black September (Munich, etc.) with that of the PLO. In fact, in your original article, you skipped from 1967 to 2000, as though nothing of significance happened in those 33 years.
Talk about “…concocting a thick smokescreen of half truths to elicit sympathy from the readers.” You provided your information solely from the Israeli government perspective and provided none from the perspective of Palestinians who weren’t even alive in 2000 or when Hamas took over. That said, Arafat’s unwillingness to compromise with Barak at Camp David in 2000 will haunt the Palestinian people for time immeasurable.
//Does he even know there are 5 times more Muslim Arabs then in 1948??//
The suggestion that the quantity of Muslim Arabs growing at the rate at which it did to imply they should be permitted to be starved and massacred is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with the argument.
//Terri And Dick Markos of La Crescent use a different tactic, not disputing the occurrence of the events I described but in effect contending the lack of an equitable settlement was because of intransigence on the part of Israeli negotiators and not at all the fault of the Arab Muslims. The Arabs, they say, were willing to compromise and offered many concessions. Oddly enough, they fail to name one, including the most important one: the right of a Jewish state to even exist! Failing that, any other of these fabled ” Concessions” is immaterial to the argument.//
They provided a name in their article. All one must do (if they’re genuinely interested) is look up “Malley and Camp David 2000” into whatever search engine tickles your fancy. There’s certainly more nuance than you may currently recognize.
//They go on to criticize our overwhelmingly left wing American media of being biased in favor of Israel [ Balderdash!!} , and deny the reality of the fact that Israel is tiny both in size { roughly the size of New Jersey] and population . //
Yet you don’t counter their arguments such as: <>You skipped right over that one, didn’t you?
//Oh boy, talk about ignoring the difficulty of a tiny Jewish state to exist in a region with 22 Muslim nations!!//
It does seem like a terrible, doomed-to-fail idea when you put it that way, doesn’t it? Almost as though it were perceptive. Tell me, what is the Christian perspective on Israel’s role come the end times?
//They really dropped the ball on the issue of expulsion of Arabs from the new state of Israel, implying the Jews are operating a defacto apartheid state. While it is true many Arabs were expelled, It was for terrorist or unlawful activities and not as a blanket policy. Many Arabs chose to stay in Israel and in fact comprise 21% of the population! 84 % of those Arabs are Muslim. All of these are eligible to vote in Municipal elections and apply for full citizenship. Since there are so few jobs in Gaza due to poor management by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, Israel grants work visas to over 10,000 Arab Muslims so they can cross the border each day to engage in gainful employment. In Israel, there are Arab Muslim elected officials and in 2022 Arab Muslim Judge Khaled Kaybup was elevated to the Israeli Supreme Court.//
“Terrorist or unlawful activities” could be described to a black woman sitting in the front of a bus in the U.S. not that long ago. The point being, your interpretation of what those words should mean may not reflect the actuality of how they were implemented. I did not live there at the time, so I cannot say for certain. But feel free to entertain that notion in the consideration of probability.
//The Markos’ wrote a whole commentary disputing my statements without disproving even one thing I said, just saying they disagree with my conclusions. Fine, think what you want folks, but facts don’t care about your feelings.//
Disproving may not have been the goal, Hawkeye. Providing more context was the goal. Not everything is night and day. You weren’t wrong in some areas. They weren’t wrong in others. It’s the context that both participants bring in this back-and-forth which should be emphasized. Facts are nothing without the fullness of truth. Naturally, we cannot always reach the 100% truth, but we can all certainly make a better effort. Your commentary is necessary to provide the perspective from your position, as is theirs.
//Now on to Mr. Webb, who insists on characterizing my commentary as based on what he calls” Alternative Facts”. He is a clever one, trying to influence the reader into doubting the statements I make while being absolutely unsuccessful in actually disproving even one single thing I wrote.//
See above.
//He again decries the terrible suffering of innocents, and in this I totally concur. But when he states that the Arab Muslims have no logical alternative but rebellion in the form of terrorist actions, I must disagree, and here is why.
1} No entity has received more humanitarian aid than the so called Palestinians….Mr. Webb wants us to think they have no good options, but they do !1] Acknowledge the right of the state of Israel to exist
2] Release all the hostages unharmed.
3] stop using hospitals, mosques, and schools as bases for military and terrorist activities
4] Use humanitarian aid for the sick and suffering people as it is intended.
5] Lay down their arms and seek a fair solution to hostilities. The potential is there to create an amazing, productive society there on the beautiful Mediterranean… after all, the Jews made the desert bloom, why can’t the Arabs do it too?//
This is a remarkable start! Now write something similar that Israel can do to make your steps 1-5 more palatable.
//What is really behind the rampant antisemitism in America? I think it’s a thinly veiled attempt to erase the history of Judeo/Christian influence and values in America. Leftists know that as long as those freedom inspiring aspects endure as our foundational values , it will remain difficult to subjugate the masses and force adoption of the secular progressive agenda they so tirelessly strive for. God Bless Dear Readers, Jeff//
This is where you may want to look up the progressive/leftist assault on American values by using your preferred search engine and typing. “Charlottesville+Unite the Right+Jews will not replace us”.
Thomas E.H. says
@ Jeff Erding
My statement above ‘Yet you don’t counter their arguments such as: You skipped right over that one, didn’t you?” was meant to include the quotation: “With reference to the 1947 UN partition plan and Mr Erding’s statement that the plan was rejected, the actual context was that the UN stepped in under zionist pressure and recommended giving 50% of Palestine to a Jewish state despite the fact that Jewish people represented only 30% of the population and owned 7% of the land.”
My error in missing the quote entirely. Such is the condition of aging, aye?
Jeff Erding says
@Thomas e h,
I have made it a policy to ignore leftist keyboard warriors like you, who write smarmy comments yet lack the courage to use their real name. For the sake of readers knowing the truth, I will make today an exception.
Thanks for helping me make my point that there has never been a nation called Palestine. The fact that I made a true statement that “puzzles” you is not the least surprising. Yes, the term was coined by Greeks and Romans , used in derision as a way to insult the Jewish inhabitants by insinuating it was the land of the Philistines.
I repeat, there never was a nation called Palestine. In 1948 when the modern state of Israel was created, who was the President of “Palestine”? Who was the Prime Minister, who served in the government and represented the people?
The answer to all: NO ONE. Because there was no Palestine . Period. If that fact ” puzzles” you, it can’t be helped. Anti Semites often find the facts about the events and interactions between Jews and other people inconvenient , especially when it refutes the anti Jewish narrative.
A lot of what I wrote seemed to puzzle and concern you, for instance the fact I skipped from ’67 to 2000.
Allow me to explain. I was strictly addressing the specific times Muslim Arabs refused to accept the offer of a homeland, not attempting to establish a complete timeline. One reason for this is the word limit imposed on commentaries in FCJ, an understandable policy but not one considered by people who lack the courage to ever submit one. Like You.
Interesting you did not refute my statement about the thousands of Muslim arabs living , working and doing well in Israel, though I have no doubt you spent hours trying to dig up something to do so. Facts are stubborn things. And how many Jews are living and thriving in Arab controlled places? None that I know of.
In the fall of 2022, I spent 17 days in the Middle East, the majority of which was in Egypt, Jordan, and areas controlled by Hamas and or the Palestinian Authority. I met dozens of Muslim Arabs , some our guides and security providers, also shop owners , bus drivers, hotel workers, waiters and waitresses. I liked most of them and the majority seemed to want the constant bloodshed to end. When we toured Muslim controlled places like Bethlehem, our Jewish guides were not allowed to enter. Interesting, no?
Your statement regarding terrorist acts resulting in deportation being a small infraction like sitting in the wrong bus seat is remarkably ignorant even considering the source. A person who gets all their information reading the New York Times, Wapo , or from some other left wing source should be more careful posting ludicrous things. Your credibility is tarnished enough as it is.
Have you or any of the other Anti Semite lefties spent time in the Middle East , talked to both sides, and learned the truth? I doubt it. Israel is our one true ally in the Middle East and a darn good one. The only hope for peace there is the elimination of terrorist organizations like Hamas. Israel has no choice and must persevere until that goal is achieved.
Like it or not, that is a fact.
Jeff Erding says
Of the three rebuttals to my factual commentary of Feb 19 in which I described the 5 times Muslim Arabs rejected a peaceful offer of a homeland , I will respond under this one but comment on each.
Scott Ewalt says I need a history lesson on the region . He goes on to state the obvious regarding the history of the area spanning thousands of years and multiple ethnic groups, then inexplicably veering off into La La Land by naming everyone but the Jews as having been indigenous residents, completely ignoring biblical and archaeologic history of Jewish occupancy for millennia .
He then subjects us to a bizarre version of terrorist activity, blaming “Zionist Terrorists” for murderous actions and completely omitting the murder of hundreds of peaceful Jewish farmers, Israeli athletes at Munich in 1972, thousands of terrorist bombings and other acts of aggression against innocent Israeli citizens…. not to mention thousands of rockets launched from Gaza into Israeli territory with no regard for who is harmed. Does he even know there are 5 times more Muslim Arabs then in 1948??
I don’t claim to know what alternative universe Mr. Ewald is dwelling in, but we know for sure no true historical narrative will ever exist there…. ever! Nuff Said.
Terri And Dick Markos of La Crescent use a different tactic, not disputing the occurrence of the events I described but in effect contending the lack of an equitable settlement was because of intransigence on the part of Israeli negotiators and not at all the fault of the Arab Muslims. The Arabs, they say, were willing to compromise and offered many concessions.
Oddly enough, they fail to name one, including the most important one: the right of a Jewish state to even exist! Failing that, any other of these fabled ” Concessions” is immaterial to the argument.
They go on to criticize our overwhelmingly left wing American media of being biased in favor of Israel [ Balderdash!!} , and deny the reality of the fact that Israel is tiny both in size { roughly the size of New Jersey] and population . Oh boy, talk about ignoring the difficulty of a tiny Jewish state to exist in a region with 22 Muslim nations!!
They really dropped the ball on the issue of expulsion of Arabs from the new state of Israel, implying the Jews are operating a defacto apartheid state. While it is true many Arabs were expelled, It was for terrorist or unlawful activities and not as a blanket policy. Many Arabs chose to stay in Israel and in fact comprise 21% of the population! 84 % of those Arabs are Muslim. All of these are eligible to vote in Municipal elections and apply for full citizenship. Since there are so few jobs in Gaza due to poor management by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, Israel grants work visas to over 10,000 Arab Muslims so they can cross the border each day to engage in gainful employment. In Israel, there are Arab Muslim elected officials and in 2022 Arab Muslim Judge Khaled Kaybup was elevated to the Israeli Supreme Court.
The Markos’ wrote a whole commentary disputing my statements without disproving even one thing I said, just saying they disagree with my conclusions. Fine, think what you want folks, but facts don’t care about your feelings.
Now on to Mr. Webb, who insists on characterizing my commentary as based on what he calls” Alternative Facts”. He is a clever one, trying to influence the reader into doubting the statements I make while being absolutely unsuccessful in actually disproving even one single thing I wrote.
He again decries the terrible suffering of innocents, and in this I totally concur. But when he states that the Arab Muslims have no logical alternative but rebellion in the form of terrorist actions, I must disagree, and here is why.
1} No entity has received more humanitarian aid than the so called Palestinians; Billions and billions since 1948. Some was used for good purposes, but the vast majority has been used to fund weapons purchases and building an estimated 400 miles of tunnels with about 5,500 secret entrance shafts under hospitals, schools, and mosques, exclusively to be used for terrorist activities! These Hamas monsters use sick people and children as human shields on a routine basis, proving beyond any doubt how evil they really are. They never even built a port system so ships bring food and medical supplies can be unloaded; Engineers from the U S military are now having to construct one for them as I write this ! Talk about a total lack of concern for you own suffering people.
Mr. Webb wants us to think they have no good options, but they do !
1] Acknowledge the right of the state of Israel to exist
2] Release all the hostages unharmed.
3] stop using hospitals, mosques, and schools as bases for military and terrorist activities
4] Use humanitarian aid for the sick and suffering people as it is intended.
5] Lay down their arms and seek a fair solution to hostilities. The potential is there to create an amazing, productive society there on the beautiful Mediterranean… after all, the Jews made the desert bloom, why can’t the Arabs do it too?
What is really behind the rampant antisemitism in America? I think it’s a thinly veiled attempt to erase the history of Judeo/Christian influence and values in America. Leftists know that as long as those freedom inspiring aspects endure as our foundational values , it will remain difficult to subjugate the masses and force adoption of the secular progressive agenda they so tirelessly strive for. God Bless Dear Readers, Jeff