Why do certain atheists continually proselytize their faith? One would think that they would be more timid about expounding on their beliefs and would be cautious in insisting that there is no Creator, no God. Some seem really angry and full of hate for God and his followers.
Why do atheists use their faith to try destroy mine? With their contempt and vitriol, what are they trying to accomplish? Theirs is a faith without hope. So what is the motive in pushing it? Who gave them this mission?
It requires an incredible arrogance and hubris to constantly tell us that they don’t believe in God. And that we who do are veritable idiots.
No God they say? They might erroneously conclude that based on “superior” intellect, on a lifelong study of the subject, and a certainty that they have the truth. They have convinced themselves that they are smart enough (they aren’t) and know enough (they don’t) to conclude that they have the absolute truth based on logic, study, and brains alone.
Wrong, dear atheist proselytizer, you can’t. You must conclude that there is no God based totally on an act of faith. It is impossible not to.
We have very short lifespans. We all have comparatively small brains and cannot “know” everything. Our limits do not give us the ability or opportunity to conclude that God does or does not exist. Unless we commit to an act of faith. Atheists commit to one kind and I, to another. Sorry Bubba, but you can’t have it any other way.
There are so many unknowns. I am fascinated by the theories describing the birth of our universe. The Big Bang for one but it’s not the Big Bang that interests me. What interests me is what existed before the Big Bang and how it got there. There is no answer. That attests to the limits of our knowledge and our lack of ability to even know.
To contend evolution is evidence there is no God is also a non-starter. One has to assume that “evolution” was not and is not directed by a Divine Being. Whatever one concludes, it is also an act of faith. Another interesting fact about evolution is that all of the “evidence” is anecdotal, not hard science.
As for the Bible, an atheist has to believe, again in an act of faith, that God’s Word isn’t true and that He did not divinely inspire it. One must have an incredible faith in one’s own infallibility to draw such conclusions. Unfortunately, a faith in self that approaches delusion.
And then there is the witness and evidence that God is. Most Christians are certain that He exists. He is in our lives and many of us have experienced Him up close and personal.
In my case, there is concrete evidence that God intervened in my life. I won’t get into the details except to say it is fact.
And this. Once a Christian friend and I were visiting a touristy town in California. As we entered one establishment, I heard in my brain a shout, “get out, get out, you don’t belong in here.” I was overwhelmed with the horrible feeling of being in presence of something truly terrible, truly evil. The hair on the back of my neck and arms stood straight up.
I told myself that I was never going to tell anyone about this. No one would believe me. Or they would think something else about me. We didn’t stay long.
When my friend, who was ahead of me, turned and looked at me, she had a really funny look on her face. As we walked out the door, she asked, did you feel that? She had experienced what I had.
That incident was as real to both of us as the nose on your face. Now, Mr. Atheist, look at all the evil in this world and explain away this encounter to me.
As C.S. Lewis said, we live in occupied territory. Atheists don’t know what it is like to live in God’s grace in the fellowship of believers. How sad. So, we pray for them. Apparently, for some, we must pray harder.
chris dorf says
Question:
If an atheist can go to heaven how do you explain Hebrews 11:6 that says without faith it is impossible to please God?
Answer:
Anyone who explicitly rejects the Gospel and the Church cannot achieve salvation. All salvation comes from Christ and the Church is the visible sign and instrument of that salvation.
There are a few ways that the issue of atheism can be addressed.
Firstly, when many people reject God they are rejecting a certain idea of God and not God Himself. It is as if someone told you all sorts of things about someone named James that sounded horrible to you so you determined that you did not like James and would never be friends with him. However, one day you meet James and discover that he is nothing like what the other person told you about him. You discover that you really do want to be friends with James. Your rejection therefore was never really of James but of a certain idea of James. James (if he was all good, loving, and merciful as God is) would certainly not hold that against you and would welcome your friendship.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-atheists-go-to-heaven
Anonymous says
The author is absolutely correct. Bible-believing Christians rely on their faith the God exists, and atheists rely on their faith that gods do not exist.
Not only the Abrahamic God, the one shared by Jews, Christians and Muslims; but all gods. Including Odin, Jupiter, Zeus, all of the Hindu gods, etc.
A man once said something to the effect that, “Once you understand why you do not believe in all the other gods, then you will understand why I do not believe in yours.”
The existence of gods is not a thing that can be proved or disproved; it is indeed all about faith.
Roger says
Simple, the bable was written by ppl who wanted to push their beliefs, so of course they would write what they wrote and also speak what their believing writers wrote hundreds of years before, just because something is written regardless of when it was written, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a fact; That’s why people study, to prove or debunk something, and it will probably never be answered correctly because believers want to push their agenda and atheists just want to debunk it, it’s not about debating, it’s simply about the banking a lie.
SKW says
When One of You Mindless Atheist Dro9nes Repeats that Silly Insult You got from Atheist Websites and calls The Bible The Bable, it Really does Not Convince Me that You are Rational and a Free Thinker. You Also Think The Bible is a Single Book, which is Absurd, and that This One Book was Written with an Agenda. Right. Why on Earth should I Take You Seriously?
Even Atheist Scholars Know This is Not True.
The Joke is, You decided Christianity is a Lie and The Bible is Fiction then look for Excuses. That is Not Reason, and has Nothing to do with Evidence. You are Guilty of what You Accuse Christians of.
Anonymous says
Question:
If an atheist can go to heaven how do you explain Hebrews 11:6 that says without faith it is impossible to please God?
Answer:
Anyone who explicitly rejects the Gospel and the Church cannot achieve salvation. All salvation comes from Christ and the Church is the visible sign and instrument of that salvation.
There are a few ways that the issue of atheism can be addressed.
Firstly, when many people reject God they are rejecting a certain idea of God and not God Himself. It is as if someone told you all sorts of things about someone named James that sounded horrible to you so you determined that you did not like James and would never be friends with him. However, one day you meet James and discover that he is nothing like what the other person told you about him. You discover that you really do want to be friends with James. Your rejection therefore was never really of James but of a certain idea of James. James (if he was all good, loving, and merciful as God is) would certainly not hold that against you and would welcome your friendship.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-atheists-go-to-heaven
Anthony smith says
A fun exercise would be to put Christian in everywhere this author put atheist and see what that feels like. I don’t think Christians see just how offensive they are when they say that they know the truth and that nonbelievers are going to hell. I think science is definitely contradicted with the Bible in many different ways. I’m also talking about psychology because when you look at the coercion of the reward and punishment and how it doesn’t work in nature. My dog doesn’t respond well to my children don’t entire nations don’t.
Jasun Quayle says
There is no leap of faith required to NOT believe in a God.
The natural world provides no evidence for the existence of your god, or for the thousands of gods imagined throughout history. Our ignorance relating to how the earth and life came about doesn’t justify your speculation that a wizard did it.
Does this mean I’m going to hell? Why would God condemn me to eternal torture for not believing him in the face of a huge lack of evidence? Why did he create me with my questioning, rational mind, only to punish me for exercising it?
Do more research before spouting your nonsense.
Bucky says
Sounds like you believe in the existence of God, you just don’t agree with him.
1. When you use “your god” instead of “a deity” you are given the impression that you recognizes the existence of some deity, that the writer follows and believes in.
2. If you are asking about hell, that implies that you acknowledge the existence of hell. But how can there be a hell without a heaven?
3. Your last paragraph gives the perception that you merely disagree with this deity. But, how can you disagree with something that doesn’t exist?
What atheists don't understand says
I see the language and argumentation used by atheists, and due to them using nothing else but semantics, being intellectually dishonest, and purposefully lying about theology, and their sheer stupidity in nonsensical word games, I now have a very reduced view of atheists. Well done, you atheists in the comments, are a credit to atheism, showing just how blatantly stupid it is.
I try to view atheists as level headed, and rational, as they claim to be, but then I read their comments. And, I am not in any way impressed. Several of you, claim that you know Christianity better than a Christian, but then go on to say that a Christian solely do good things, to earn a good afterlife. This is being seriously dishonest, and shows only complete and utter ignorance of what you claim to know, which you don’t.
A Christian does not in any way try to do good works, in order to gain a good afterlife, that is how all other religions functions but not Christianity. In Christianity, salvation (Heaven) is by faith in grace so that none may boast. To further disprove the dishonest position of atheists, The Bible clearly states that works to earn something from God is by God seen s filthy rags. So this atheistic notion and position is completely false.
So many of you, have misconstrued false perceptions of Christianity, and therefore also the theology.. One of you seems to think that, for being Hindu or something, you are unforgivable, this is false. I don’t know from who you heard that, but it is a blatant lie. No one is unforgivable, no one is beyond the saving grace of God. It does not matter how much you try to blaspheme, or spite God, God still loves you, no matter who you are or what you’ve done.
This perfect morality, is what sets God apart, from false gods. Jesus Christ died for sinners, everyone is a sinner, that means that God died for everyone. If you simply believe, and trust in God, accept Jesus Christ as your savior, then you are saved, and there is nothing to do in addition to that. But funny how atheists tries to intentionally ignore and misconstrue this simple truth that is made apparent to those who actually read. It is dishonest, and shows clear intention to misrepresent by claiming something else. So you atheist claim that only you as atheists understand atheism, and therefore no non-atheists are allowed to comment on it. Well, in that case, since atheists aren’t Christian, then neither do you get to comment or criticize on Christianity. See how that works both ways? If you get to tell us, then we get to tell you, and same as you we’re telling you that you don’t understand Christianity., at all.
You fail to understand, that God wrote His law on our hearts, and therefore morality is not dependent on believing or not believing. But funny how you try and use smear tactics, to try and make the false claim that believers think that morality is dependent on belief. You don’t understand, because you choose to not understand, you are set in your heart to disbelieve evidence, and therefore will you neither accept evidence when provided it.
What seems to be the case, for atheists claiming to have been Christian, is that they became so in their teens, for quite a lot at least. When either their selfish prayer wasn’t answered, or when something bad happened that tested their faith, they lost faith because it was weak. And so they went on to proclaim themselves atheist, when the atheist claim is that God doesn’t exist, which means it is nonsensical and pointless to argue against something you don’t believe to exist. Which means that in actuality, atheists arguing against God, to Christians, is having a beef and problem with God, and are trying to justify their position against God to Christians who they see as representatives of God. They claim to not believe, but by going out of their way, to try and justify their disposition against God, they only show by action that they seek God. They seek to God, but their weak faith, indicates that they came from a denomination, that is not Biblical Christianity but from a doctrine based on understandings outside of what is understood from The Bible. Catholicism is one such case, and other denominational doctrines that shows they don’t trust in God, and therefore that these denominations think that what God isn’t sufficient but that something must be done in addition. This is Catholicism in a nutshell.
God saves, does not mean full protection from any and all harm in this life. That atheists think so, shows that they have not, and do not understand the scriptures. Ever heard of Job? Or the disciples? God saves, means that those who are saved, will go to Heaven, and nothing can make someone who is saved become unsaved. When you believe and trust in God, you are saved.
The arguments and accusations atheists have against God, is not at all based on scriptures, but solely their own misconceptions and misunderstandings, that is the understanding atheists rely themselves on. Which by proxy becomes a false position by default. Which makes atheism look bad, and atheists delusional. It is not meant against those who understand scriptures, but against those who don’t, or do who intentionally lie because they cant use honesty to defeat Christianity, they have to lie and deceive with underhanded measures. This is the sort of atheists that will reply, for these are the very ones called into question. And they dislike being called into question, because it convicts them, and they hate it.
You can be against, but least be against based on truth, not lies. Make your choice atheists!
william hager says
You may rest assured that your silly misunderstanding of the facts regarding atheism and theism leaves reasonable pretty unimpressed also.
william hager says
I was a christian for many years. Reading this, I understand it far better then you do. Your misunderstanding of science, logic, and the bible have led you astray.
I pity ytou and hope you join the real world some day.
Anonymous says
I love you, enemy
Mike says
Right off the bat; as is usual for ignorant, arrogant christians; you don’t know what you are talking about. Atheism is not faith based. This is a lie and you are a liar for saying it is. How dare you be so openly immoral and dishonest?
The simple fact is that no religion or god or anything of that sort has ever been able to produce any evidence or even a valid logical argument in its favor. Apologists might try producing something like that (Even though such efforts are a laughable litany of failure) rather then whining about how the absolutely reasonable rejection of unproven claims is somehow unreasonable. It just won’t work. Anyone with a modicum of education sees right through this kind sophistry. Theism is making the claim. Theists have the burden of proof. Stop strawmanning, stop lying, stop shifting the goalposts and just admit that your beliefs fail.
Izell Keith Hendrieth says
I can’t believe he said that evolution is ALL anecdotal evidence. Clearly not true! You should do more research on the experiments for evolution.
Anonymous says
No he said you atheists are hell bent on proving God doesn’t exist and to make that true about evolution you must assume that God didn’t have a hand in evolution. You atheists are butter, snarky , mean and hopeless. You insist on preaching that it’s better to have no hope. You preach that not caring and self serving is the best bet. You dont want to believe and that’s your choice. Just stop bringing everyone down with you celebration of the profane and hopeless rhetoric. We get it. You think your smarter. You want everybody to do what the want, or at least in the realm of what you want. You point is hopeless is his point. Why do you get so much joy out of making people hopeless ?
Anonymous says
Atheists do good for the sake of good. Doing good only because you will be divinely rewarded or punished in hell if you don’t is incredibly selfish. Theists are the self-serving ones. I help others because I want to, not because I think it’s the ticket to some fictional heaven. So sad that theists need religion to behave well. Man has made 3,000 gods. You don’t believe in 2,999 of them. I just believe in one less god than you do.
facepalming atheist correcting morons says
You have here committed several fallacies, which causes your false arguments, that are deliberately misconstrued, to self destruct and fall apart. First off, the beginning sentence is heavily biased, and not true, you state atheists, meaning all atheists, to do good for the sake of good, which is false. All humans have a fallen nature, we are susceptible to sin, and so no one of us are good, we are inclined to be egotistical. Humans don’t do good for the sake of good, humans do good to make themselves feel good, with your criticism against Christians you cant deny that fact. If you claim that only atheists can be good, then you show bias that only defeats your argument.
The second mistake, is to (hopefully not) deliberately misunderstand/misrepresent Christianity, by making a strawman (atheists bread and butter). Which only shows that you have not in any way understood what it means to be Christian or theology. If you think that Christianity is about doing works, to go to Heaven, then you are severely mistaken. But that’s no wonder, you’re an atheist, and as almost all internet keyboard warrior activist atheists have shown themselves, they are heavily under-educated and ignorant when it comes to theology.
Christianity, salvation (going to Heaven), is by grace in faith so that none may boast. That you have not mentioned this in the slightest, shows that you have not in any way understood, even less that Christianity is not about religious practices but a personal relationship with God. Disbelievers are sinners, and believers are sinners, the differences is that believers believes and trusts in God, whereas disbelievers do not. To go to Heaven, you have to believe and trust in The One Who provides the way, if you don’t accept the gift of salvation which is to reject it, then neither can you go to Heaven. You must be perfect to enter Heaven, and the only way for a sinner to do so, is to be cloaked in righteousness by God Who have the power and authority to do so. By Jesus Christ dying on the cross for all humanity, those who believe are washed pure, while still living on earth it will be a battle against the flesh, for our new nature is in conflict with the sinful flesh. But in God’s eyes, a Christian is perfect, whiter than snow, and can therefore enter God’s kingdom after death.
You go on to make a strawman, that religious people need a god(s) to behave well. This is only a self defeating fallacy, which you make out of an abhorrent ignorance due to lack of knowledge and understanding. The false position, is to claim using theology, that believers need religion to be moral, when the same theology says that God Who created us have written His law on our hearts, which means that we are fully able to be moral whether one believes in God or not. This is a false point and a strawman constructed by atheists in a desperate attempt, to try and paint Christianity in a false image that would put it in a bad light to those equally ignorant and un-knowledgeable as atheists are, while trying to paint atheism that have no objective standard of morality in a good light. God wrote His law on our hearts, it’s not going to, it is He wrote His law on our hearts, meaning that we already have morality understanding of good and evil.
Your last sentence, is just laughable, and utterly stupid, it is illogical. With that statement, where you try to claim that Christians are atheists, just less atheist for believing in one more than you do, just falls apart in so many ways. Firstly by any and all variations that is defined in a dictionary, and the ones constructed by atheists to try and recover from a loosing position where the clear cut definitions defeats them, atheism as atheists put it is lack of belief in God, a god, or gods. So by the very definition(s) of atheism, a Christian, or Theist as you try to put to try and avoid making it seem like you label Christians, a Christian is simply not atheist. It doesn’t matter how many gods a Christian rejects, 10, 100, 1000 or 10 000, it is still belief in a god, in this case God. If you think you’re smart or clever for making this false argument, know that you simply are just being stupid, utterly so.
facepalming atheist correcting morons says
This is false, all other religions is good works to earn a good afterlife, whereas Christianity is salvation by grace in faith so that none may boast. Your argument is false. Doing good to try and earn Heaven, is by God in the theology of Christianity, seen as filthy rags. Your argument is false, and you make us all look bad.
Humans are egotistical, and do good for the sake of making themselves feel good. Don’t go into the self defeating trap of falsely representing atheism as something it’s not. To further refute you, you try to argue from the theological standpoint, in which case you should include that God wrote His law on the hearts of humans, meaning that according to the theology morality is not dependent on religion. You are a disgrace for committing this fallacy, for our criticism and defeat of Christianity to be true, we cannot base our arguments on falsities and lies.
You being 3000% atheist, but Christians for denying all but one God, makes them 2999% atheist? Are you seriously being this dense?! No wonder we need to construct claims like us being smarter, to try and win with underhanded measures, when we have people like you coming with such utterly stupid arguments.
william hager says
Wrong. We atheists know that it is unreasonable to believe in any god. You begin with a blatant error and dishonest claim.
Atheists are bitter, snarky, etc.? Liar. I pity you in your malignant hypocrisy.
You say that atheism is “hopeless”? Another lie.
Why is it that christians constantly resort to blatant dishonesty? Seriously, can you not think or tell the truth at all?
Polly Fisher says
My thoughts exactly. And “Bubba”, really?
So rude. Every single atheist I have ever met has been the most kind, respectful and thoughtful person. Can’t say that for a lot of christians I have met in my day.
David M says
“Atheists don’t know what it is like to live in God’s grace in the fellowship of believers.” Well, technically, yes, because as a former Christian and now an atheist, I don’t believe that I could walk in the grace of a being that likely doesn’t exist. But I certainly believed at the time of my faith that I walked in it’s grace, so you’re wrong about that – many atheists were Christians and experienced’ the feeling of grace. And the rest of your article is filled with an equal amount of absurdity and insults – you sound like you’re preaching on a elementary school playground and obviously do not understand logical arguments. Atheism is not about faith – it is about the absence of believe in a god and therefore and absence of faith of any kind. And the Big Bang theory, etc., has nothing to do with atheism. Evolution and all of the other science that conflicts with your beliefs could be disproved today and it still doesn’t provide any evidence that your god exists.
Sarah says
Can I just ask what made you decide to no longer be a Christian?
Dorie A Larue says
As for me, research. Scholarly research.
william hager says
Facts and reason. The lack of any evidence for any god. The understanding that with so many myths having been made up by people, it is insane to choose one to believe in over all the others. The immorality of christians. The immorality of the bible. The falsity of the bible. The problem of evil. The vacuity and failure of every argument for any god.
The list goes on and on. The real question is, who did you choose to be a christian. The most likely answer, the one that is pretty much universally true, is that you were raised as a christian and never mustered up the ability to think for yourself.
PermReader says
I`m born atheist(just like my children) and being educated in the sphere of technical sciences, I simply don`t need any religion for the explanations of the life and the death. Though the existing religions looks like tales for me, idon`t think of proving the non existance of any god.This hypotheses is not needed to me.
Jesus’ Ambassador says
“Where is the wise man (philosopher)? Where is the scribe (scholar)? Where is the debater (logician, orator) of this age? Has God not exposed the foolishness of this world’s wisdom?”
1 Corinthians 1:20
So if you don’t believe in God and science has all your answers, then where do you go when you die? would you rather have eternal life? or do you choose to perish forever because of worldly beliefs. Don’t get me wrong, it’s awesome that you know science, but you should also know that same knowledge you have came from God alone. And if you really believed you wouldn’t be sitting here trying to explain or maybe justify what you believe.
Todd James says
The scholar orator and scribe posted the article above. I suppose then he is foolish for even debating just like your scriptures point out. If Romans 1:19 is true and you debate are you then saying you don’t believe it?
We. says
Your quoting a fictitious book and think anyone with a brain will take you seriously.
Also Atheist is a pejorative term made up by Christians for one reason: to hate, to create a common enemy. You burned atheist at stake, far worse than what you did to the blacks in America which you called the N-word so yes the word atheist is just as offensive as the n-word.
Why did you even had to involve non religious people in your mass delusion?
You attacked them, not the other way around. You deluded yourself into thinking they are wrong because they offended a non existing god. If the bible cannot even teach you modern day morals then it is useless.
facepalming atheist correcting morons says
Helping to end black slavery thanks to Christianity, is a a bad thing? Can you self proclaiming atheist democrats stop trying to drag all of atheism down? Thank you!
william hager says
No. Your god has not done anything. To make this claim in dishonest.
When you die, you will be dead. Oblivion. No pearly gates or any of that nonsense. That’s all. No eternal life, no soul, none of it.
Atheists do not make an effort to justify what we accept. That is objectively foundational and observed. We ask theists to justify your claims and watch you fail and fail and fail.
Todd Pearson says
Stan-
As a doctrinally and theologically conservative and orthodox Christian I plead with you to never speak again for doctrinally and theologically sound Christians. You have no grasp of Christian apologetic methods and your entire commentary as well as your responses here have displayed a severe lack of Christian integrity and humility.
As an apologist I would gladly converse with you in order to show you much better ways to engage with your atheists neighbors. Please reach out to me as you have time.
-Todd Pearson
ifonlyevenone@yahoo.com
Sean Flaherty says
I believe in positivity. Not a God. 4200 religions in the world tells me a couple things. No.1 people need to be controlled, and what better way to do it, than scaring them into conforming by threats of a horrible afterlife or just murder them for not believing. 2. In our infinite universe theres a supreme god and it only looks at one tiny little palnet? 3. All throughout history there’s always been different gods, and it always seems to follow a huge advancement in human evolution (people getting smarter) 4. Christianity. That is a batshit crazy religion. You got people devoting their life to a god that doesn’t claim them. According to their book the god of Israel is the one true god. But isn’t that statement contradicting? For a god to recognize other gods, doesn’t that mean there is more than one god? Maybe im just a stupid non believer.and ill never get why smart people lose all intelligence when it comes to this subject. Or maybe Im not scared of death and what’s waiting or isnt. Thats what it boils down to. Not being able to accept that there is no stopping death. So they use god am heaven to work themselves up yo prepare for it. Maybe they’re jealous that there are people like me who accept an unknown fate, and live without fear. Its like slaves looking at a freed slave. But if it makes you happy to believe. Who am i to take that away? Do what makes you happy, because i sure will. And if you feel the need to pray for me. I accept that too. I am my own power and my own weakness.
Ryan Chesmore says
Um where does the Bible say exactly that God is recognizing other gods? There are plenty of gods with a lowercase “g,” but there can only be one true God? You do realize this is the same with science, right? Science can recognize a theory, but according to reality, there can only be one truth. It happens all the time in life. There can be a recognition of many lies, but there must exist, by all logic, an all knowing/existing truth.
william hager says
The Ten Commandments. “I am the lord they god and thou shall have no other gods before me.”
So, you clearly don’t know the bible very well.
The rest of your post was illiterate and incoherent.
Siva Canjeevaram says
Wow! Juice bar with punching bag. Let me get in and have drink. ..so folks? What is on the menu? Kook aid…? Red pill? ..blue pill.?
I am a born Hindu, brushed my shoulders with Islam, baptized Pentecostal (yeah! The BBB of spirituality)
Let me just piss the post and leave.
1. There is no spirit or soul
2. There is no after life
These are the two basis (of several) for my “faith” that god does not exist. I do not want to go into the topic of why I am a “god hater. Let us leave it for edmundsons grandson.
Instead of approaching outside in I approach inside out. And there is nothing.
There is no point or purpose for god to exist. Everything is a waste including the glory and blah blah. God is such a waste for himself and everybody.
If I was god I will decide to “stop existing” you can call that a “theocide” my friends. Adios enjoy your time.
Ryan Chesmore says
You can’t hate what doesn’t allegedly exist. That’s contradictory in terms. Do you hate the tooth fairy? Why not? That doesn’t exist either. Unfortunately for you, the soul does exist, as do heaven and hell. You want to spend your eternity in a bottomless pit, in pure agony, being tortured and tormented by the devil and his demons? Or you want to spend eternity in a place where no pain, no tears, it’s pure bliss?
NoSurprise says
That seems to be the case for a lot of atheists, they used to believe, but then something bad happened, and then they stopped believing. Long as everything went their way, they believed, but once their faith was tested, which is where we see whether we truly trust God or not, they just up and leaves.
She went from Hinduism to Islam, both of which gives flawed/false depictions of God who made the universe, time space and matter. And then, going to pentecostal, so it really is no wonder why she went straight to hate God at the first sign of trouble, her faith was weak, and had no grounded belief, the perfect victim to claim for the enemy..
Many atheist claim that they became so, after studying this and that, but since so many become atheist in their teens, it seems that their atheism, is dependent on something happening to them, they don’t like to share or talk about it, and so they run the educational excuse. Which is why, they go out of their way, invading Christian spaces, to try and justify their atheism, to Christians, against God who they claim they don’t believe in. They’re not atheist because of research or anything like that, they’re atheist because they have a beef and problem with God, because they were fair weather lukewarm “Christians” who couldn’t hardships or obstacles. God didn’t promise a smooth fight, but a smooth landing.
william hager says
I used to believe but then I grew up. I realized that the Bible was full of nonsense, lies and immorality. Maybe someday you to will become an adult. So many don’t.
It is a lie to say that atheists go out of their way to invade “christian spaces” but dishonesty is part and parcel of christianity. Christians invade secular spaces, such as schools and the political arena, and then have foot-stamping tantrums when not deferred to.
There is no need to justify atheism. It is the default position. It is incumbent on those making a claim to support it. That means you christians… and yet not one of you has ever been able to.
How dare you speak to the content of my mind, you arrogant, lying hypocrite? I reject your god claims. I reject them because they do not stand up to reasoned scrutiny. When you make any contrary claim, you are a filthy damned liar.
facepalming atheist correcting morons says
Thank you fellow atheist, for making it clear that we hate God, that we believe there is absolutely nothing metaphysical or paranormal, and that life itself is meaningless. I hope that you seek removing other peoples hope and comfort in life as well. After all, taking hope and faith from people is a good thing, atheistic morality is subject only to the subjective view of the atheist, and always changing. We recognize ourselves to be evil, so I’m glad to meet a fellow true evil atheist.
william hager says
Thank you for the way your silly little attempt at reversal highlights the lies and stupidity of the theist.
Atheists hate god? You are a liar. We don’t believe in any god.
We say life is meaningless? Liar.
We want to remove hope and comfort? Liar.
Atheists are evil? Liar.
There is nothing good about who you are or what you believe.
S Mason says
Isn’t there something in Christianity about not lying or making false representation? The author is either dishonest or grotesquely ignorant of his subject. Nether are great positions when publishing an article on any subject.
How about, Fillmore County Journal, allowing a response to this utter nonsense, from just about any atheist who could knock it out of the park in a few short sentences?
When I deconverted, I was stunned to discover that this sort of rubbish – which I’d thought of as deeply sage – was just ignorant garbage. Let’s have a solid reply: how about it?
Bob says
S mason spare us your nonsense . I could show within minutes that your religion of atheism is built upon emotion and not science , reason and logic .
As a former atheist myself who came back to God it would be child’s play .
Are you game ?
Kaniner says
Do it, then. If you’re not all talk.
Mike says
I see you have not followed through on your arrogant boast. Unsurprising. It is typical behavior of the arrogant, dishonest christian to drop into discussions like this, spew their dishonest nonsense, and run away like whipped curs.
Pffft XD says
Wow look at you, aren’t you a brave little keyboard atheist “warrior”, replying to a comment over 2 years later. Hoping (knowing), that you wouldn’t get a reply back. Such brave, such courage! clap… clap… .. ..clap.
Conveniently, you’re ignoring the fact, that the challenge was issued to S Mason, not you. So you commenting on it, makes no sense. Unless, you’re a butthurt S Mason that was bitter for 2 years, and when hoping you wouldn’t get a reply, wrote under a pseudonym.
In either case, it is just sad and pathetic behavior. But hey, what else is there to expect from atheists. They’re rude, arrogant, and extremely impolite.
william hager says
Aren’t you a cowardly little christian hypocrite? I replied to a comment. Anyone can respond, like you did. I got your reply and I am responding. How about another sarcastic slow clap?
Conveniently, the OP and now you have no actual response. Clap… clap… clap… Typical christian crybaby. You infantile and butthurt response is exactly what we can expect from theistic buffoons. Clap… clap… clap.
You have nothing to say of value, as one must expect from christians. You are arrogant, dishonest and mist importantly, wrong.
Richard Carter says
In stopping back to see if there have been any further posts, I thought I’d share a parting thought:
Every time someone posts a negative article such as the one which started this thread, there are bound to be those in the community the publication serves, who find the perspectives such as that of Free Thinkers, or the non-religious to be if not curious, but of validity and worthy of consideration and more thorough thought.
In the end, I believe Mr. Gudmundson did more to further the position of those he so energetically defended against. That’s okay. He simply opened a door no Free Thinkers could have done on our own, giving us a platform on which to respond. For that, I personally thank Mr. Gudmundson.
I just hope he will continue to do more of the same in public written forums. I provides those opportunities for both sides to be heard.
Andy Mackem says
“In my case, there is concrete evidence that God intervened in my life. I won’t get into the details except to say it is fact.”
Oh damn, I genuinely thought we were finally going to get some verifiable evidence that god exists there, only to have my hopes instantly dashed yet again.
Stan, you seem to constantly criticise.atheists for not even trying to understand your beliefs, but when you have what you state is incontrovertible “fact”, you won’t tell us what it is. How cruel. Did god tell you be doesn’t want people to know about him?
I want to know, I really do. Please tell us what this is so we poor atheists may be enlightened. Otherwise the only explanation is that you are unutterably selfish.
P.S. I actually have concrete proof in my own life that god definitely doesn’t exist. Incredible proof, I’m not going to tell you what it was, but I promise you it’s incapable of any other interpretation.
Now do you see how stupid that line is?
Anonymous says
Please never build a house on that concrete evidence. Lol
Thomas E.H. says
Did anyone else find this story a bit odd? Did the shop blow up? Did anything bad happen?
One time, my lass and I both heard a creaky sound from the stairs. We both shivered, because a sudden chill came over us. The end. That was your story Stanley. Nothing happened other than you had some spidey senses, which we all do to a degree.
//And this. Once a Christian friend and I were visiting a touristy town in California. As we entered one establishment, I heard in my brain a shout, “get out, get out, you don’t belong in here.” I was overwhelmed with the horrible feeling of being in presence of something truly terrible, truly evil. The hair on the back of my neck and arms stood straight up.
I told myself that I was never going to tell anyone about this. No one would believe me. Or they would think something else about me. We didn’t stay long.
When my friend, who was ahead of me, turned and looked at me, she had a really funny look on her face. As we walked out the door, she asked, did you feel that? She had experienced what I had.
That incident was as real to both of us as the nose on your face. //
Jon Trouten says
Yeah, the story about the store made no sense to me.
Thomas E.H. says
Oh my goodness! Stan, Stan, Stan the man! How are you? Long time no see. I rather enjoyed your break, but that’s personal. Let’s get to this nonsense that you wrote about people you clearly don’t understand.
1. Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity.
2. That’s the only thing all atheists have in common.
3. This is for the Fillmore County Journal blokes: Had Stan written such blatant falsehoods about Jews, would this have been published? Why/why not?
4. Back to you, Stan! You may want to brush up on evolution.
5. Since you now understand 1. and 2. please recognise that atheists can indeed believe in an afterlife! Wow! You’d thought you heard it all! But it’s true. We can believe any and all kinds of things. Other than gods.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
1. Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity.
2. That’s the only thing all atheists have in common.
Taken in isolation, I don’t disagree with you at all. Moreover, you can point to examples where my general criticism of atheism would be inaccurate in a specific sense. For instance, the late neo-con Sidney Hook was an atheist because, as he said, he didn’t think there was enough evidence for a creator. People like this are outliers for the most part as are those who say they are Christians but believe in abortion.
But the atheist faith isn’t something that can be generally isolated. You for example. You say that you enjoyed the break from my commentary and that it is personal. I don’t believe I know you personally which suggests that you disagree with what I write. That would mean that you are on the left as opposed to my being on the right. You guys generally lean left. way left, and way, way left. You do have much in common. Given what many atheists write, that’s not hard to figure out.
If you scratch an abortionist or a supporter of abortion, I’ll bet that the vast majority are atheists. True believing communists and socialists? Atheists. Christians and others look at these things and see a common thread, that is, a culture of death and ideologies of misery and death.
Evolution again? The difference between what you and I believe is that you think all this just happened. I don’t. As for the specifics of how it all occurred, I’ll never know enough to figure it all out. I disagree with the “must believe” notions of some Christians such as you must believe in the creation story as the Bible says if you are to be a real Christian. The Catholic Church, for example, says they don’t have a problem with theory of evolution. God directed of course.
But evolution is a secondary and maybe even tertiary concern. The one abiding truth and the one abiding requirement more important than anything else is faith in Christ on the cross and what his death means for us.
If we can’t quite get comfortable with the things we don’t understand or find hard to accept, we ask for forgiveness for those short-comings. In the Lord’s prayer when we ask for the forgiveness of our sins. None of us, no one as individuals or none of the differing Christian faiths will get it quite right. No one. Too many humans involved. And then, there is that other influence that is not helpful to the Christian faith or to anything that is right and decent.
Last, near-death experiences. Way down near the end of these comments, I raise that subject on 21 May. Do you think everyone made up these things from whole-cloth? Including people I know and trust?
Thomas E.H. says
Dearest Stan the Man,
//Taken in isolation, I don’t disagree with you at all. Moreover, you can point to examples where my general criticism of atheism would be inaccurate in a specific sense. For instance, the late neo-con Sidney Hook was an atheist because, as he said, he didn’t think there was enough evidence for a creator. People like this are outliers for the most part as are those who say they are Christians but believe in abortion.//
Okay.
//But the atheist faith isn’t something that can be generally isolated. You for example. You say that you enjoyed the break from my commentary and that it is personal. I don’t believe I know you personally which suggests that you disagree with what I write. That would mean that you are on the left as opposed to my being on the right. You guys generally lean left. way left, and way, way left. You do have much in common. Given what many atheists write, that’s not hard to figure out.//
Okay, Stan the Man, can you connect the dots of what you just said? How is your example evidence at all of “atheist faith”? What is my faith, Stanley? You tell me. But, first please define faith so that we are all aware you know what it means.
//scratch an abortionist or a supporter of abortion, I’ll bet that the vast majority are atheists.//
You’ll “bet”? No. Stan. You are making assertions about an entire group of people. How about you provide some actual statistics. You know, numbers to back up your claims. That would be great!
//True believing communists and socialists? Atheists.//
You add “true” in there so you can discount any people you choose. Well done with your semantics play there bud. Ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy?
//Christians and others look at these things and see a common thread, that is, a culture of death and ideologies of misery and death.//
You do know that it’s your religion obsessed with death, right? I’m not sure how you became Speaker of the Christian faith, but until you have Pope in front of your name, I’ll take your words with multiple grains of salt.
//Evolution again? The difference between what you and I believe is that you think all this just happened. I don’t. //
On the contrary Stanley, YOU do believe it just happened via God. I accept the process of evolution as evidence suggests.
//As for the specifics of how it all occurred, I’ll never know enough to figure it all out. I disagree with the “must believe” notions of some Christians such as you must believe in the creation story as the Bible says if you are to be a real Christian. The Catholic Church, for example, says they don’t have a problem with theory of evolution. God directed of course.//
I fully enjoy those Christians who accept the fact of evolution and apply that knowledge to fighting cancer.
//But evolution is a secondary and maybe even tertiary concern. The one abiding truth and the one abiding requirement more important than anything else is faith in Christ on the cross and what his death means for us.//
Yes. I agree with you there. Unless your denial of evolution is reflected in your vote for people who wish to undermine the public education system. Blimey, and I thought we had it bad across the pond.
//Last, near-death experiences. Way down near the end of these comments, I raise that subject on 21 May. Do you think everyone made up these things from whole-cloth? Including people I know and trust?//
You know what’s remarkable about people with NDEs? 1) their brains are literally physically malfunctioning, and 2) what of the evidence of reincarnation? Buddhism, Hinduism, and all have examples from people who had NDE but their NDE reflected their own religious afterlife. Maybe you are wrong and there is more than one god of this universe? You can use that evidence to support your God, then why can’t people of other religious backgrounds use their experiences to support their god(s)? How reliable is their testimony?
John Hammer says
I will only comment that I don’t want to argue with you about how you perceive atheists, I can’t change your mind that Christians are always crying persecution because if they don’t complain the persecution will become real.
It is clear that God is pathetic, powerless, in such that 10% of the population (non-believers) has so much sway over a “Christian” nation. How the slight of not believing in God poses so much concern. How these believers get on TV every Sunday, offering God’s healing if one just sends them some “seed” money. Why does God need money? Why does God need my love, respect, if I have already rejected him? Why does God send such pathetic idiots to convince someone that they need to “shift” their faith from non-believing to believing. And that messenger is so incredibly insulting that if he were a man with the love of God in his heart but acts no better than an angry drunk at the end of the bar?
Pay your tab and go home!
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I can’t be angry or hate anyone. Jesus said we had to love one another. Wasn’t a hint and wasn’t one of those “if you feel like it” or “if you get around to it” kind of commandments. Pay my bill? I don’t have to. Jesus did that. Go home? You bet. I’m looking forward to it.
Todd James says
Sure you can. You’re not Lt Commander Data are you? Are you an Android? Tell your God you aren’t.
Mike says
This is dishonest. You are clearly angry at and hate atheists because out position is not faith based and utterly reasonable and correct while yours is nonsensical.
Instead of crying about it, you could try showing some evidence for the ludicrous christian faith or just stop lying.
George says
After another tragic school shooting massacre I wonder how many bible thumpers are praying that their guns are safe?
Stanley J Gudmundson says
What we will do is look at all of the facts. Then we will, many of us anyway, join the NRA.
eric collier says
“Why do certain atheists continually proselytize their faith?”
Because you neo-uber Christians are continually proselytizing, preaching, haranguing, harassing, lecturing, scolding, grabbing political power to impose your values & beliefs on the rest of us. Tell you what. We’ll knock it off if you will.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I’m curious what your thoughts about those who literally risk their lives to become Christians. Around 90,000 people are murdered every year just because they are Christian.
Thomas E.H. says
People lose their lives just because they are Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Christians, Sikhs. Stan, it’s the world we live in, and your rhetoric causes more ire and demonises non-Christians. Are you helping anyone other than Christians? Are your words negatively impacting the lives of everyone else? I don’t poo-poo on religion for those who it truly helps. I’m sure it’s helped you. I’m happy for that. I really am. But, I don’t know how else to tell you that some of us have a different avenue for our spiritual/mental path.
Mike de Fleuriot says
90k risk becoming Christian? hell, your God can not even protect them when they are his sheep, so what use is he. At least the Atheists fight against those who would harm Christians. We attack their beliefs and show why it’s better to live a real life without fear of the bogie man. (Ever wonder why Superman can not finally defeat Lex Luthor?)
Ryan Chesmore says
God isn’t the boogie man, and Satan and his minions are far worse than any boogie man could dream up. God does protect his children, but not every time. If the time clock in heaven says it’s ready to go, there is no stopping it.
Mike says
Why do you christians lie and claim atheists engage in proselytization? Even if that canard were true (and we all know it isn’t) why is it OK for christians to try to spread a false faith to children?
If you have a problem with the fact that christianity must be considered a false faith, provide evidence for it. Otherwise, you are just a babbling gibberish.
Tim Cooper says
Additional: it’s amazing how every statement in this essay about hubris and presumption would be equally valid if reversed, talking about why theists feel the need to constantly belittle atheists and proselytize their beliefs.
Cassidy McGillicuddy says
It’s why he goes straight to threats. Threats work on him. Grandly. Consistently. He’s at heart a very frightened little man. But the one power he feels he has–the right to try to invoke fear in others–is being whittled away by a modern world he totally doesn’t understand. It has got to be very unpleasant to be Stan Gudmundson these days.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Wow, have you got that wrong. I’m not little and I certainly am not afraid. Don’t understand the modern world? Really? Do you mean to tell me that humanity has somehow changed during our lifetimes? Not likely. The troubles with the human heart have not changed in what, thousands of years.
As for being an unpleasant time, I have never been as happy and content as I am now. Unlike an atheist, I can and do look forward. Not back. And you, if you are reaching the end of your journey here on earth, what do you look towards? Or do you look backwards with complete satisfaction or are you full of regrets? I really do feel sorry for you and your fellow atheists. You just don’t, can’t, or won’t try to understand.
And threats? What threats? I’ve threatened no one. Except that what I have said might have threatened your shaky faith.
Herp says
“Unlike an atheist, I can and do look forward.”
Ladies and Gentleman. Here we have an example of the classic special pleading argument. Please take note at how he deliberately ignores all the examples of atheists looking forwards to their future families, careers, and life experiences.
“Except that what I have said might have threatened your shaky faith.”
*Reads comments below*
*Sees how many atheists corrected Stan’s assertion that atheism is a faith.*
*Wonders what is wrong with Stan :|.*
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Classic special pleading argument? Nah, don’t obfuscate, you know very well what I meant. Your post-earthly destination.
Herp says
Not obfuscating, just simply pointing out the flaw in your argument.
S Mason says
But Stanley, you’ve evidenced publicly that you wouldn’t recognise a fact if it smacked you over the head. You really are immune to facts…
Tell us about these facts which would lead you to join the NRA. It’s probably all there in the sermon on the mount – I must have just missed it.
Mike says
Yes, you are afraid. You cower before an imaginary being and beg him not to punish you forever and ever.
Why do christians so constantly and consistently lie?
Tim Cooper says
“Now, Mr. Atheist, look at all the evil in this world and explain away this encounter to me.”
It doesn’t exactly stretch my imagination to think that two people, raised similarly in the same culture, could be suddenly triggered by the same only-barely-perceived set of stimuli to have a panic response. But no, obviously it was the Mad Blood God of the Desert sticking his moistened pinkie into both of your ears simultaneously to warn you of some danger that, since you two bugged out before anything happened, is even less than hypothetical.
Keep praying for me and mine, though. That way you won’t be doing anything that affects the price of rice in Peoria while the rest of humanity gets the job done.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Panic attack? After 30 years in the military that is definitely something I am not susceptible to. But to encounter something other-worldly? That’s a really strange sensation. You make fun of our experience, as I am not surprised some of you might, but, as I said, it was real. Sooner or later you will know and understand. I do hope that you grasp this before your demise.
Herp says
And what of the other people of different faiths that have also had ‘convincing experiences’? Are they all just crazy? Are you the only ‘not crazy’ one?
People have feelings all the time Stan. When I was a kid, I used to be afraid of the dark. It made me feel frightened. That doesn’t mean dark is evil.
When you choose to believe something is real, you feel like it is real. That is how the brain works.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Herp buddy, you are absolutely clueless.
Herp says
Still haven’t answered the question <w<.
Herp says
Still avoiding the question I see. Hmm..
Michael Neville says
I only did 20 years in the military but I know that I’m just as susceptible to fear as anyone else. Spending a year as a machine gunner on a riverine monitor in Vietnam showed me fear. Later on, after I went into submarines, there were some pretty scary moments, If you’re going to say that you didn’t feel fear then I’ll know that you’re either stupid or a liar and I don’t think you’re stupid.
I think you had a panic attack. I don’t know why you had one nor do I really care, but I’m pretty sure that you had one. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. As the old saying about combat goes, long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of terror. If you’ve been in combat you’d know this.
–YNCS(SS), USN (Ret)
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I never said I wasn’t afraid. I said I don’t panic. Not yet anyway.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Two of us had the same “panic attack?”
Thomas E.H. says
Yes. Two of you had a feeling. Was there any merit to the disturbance in the force? What evil was present? Did you just leave others who were unaware to their demise? Did you flee from the unknown on your own, without alerting the crowd at large? Why? Didn’t want to look crazy? So what if it saves their souls? What really was at stake here? Your story really is confounding.
Mike says
Even if you do not suffer panic attacks, you still live your life as a trembling coward, crying and begging your imaginary friend not to hurt you.
You have never encountered something other-worldly. There is no such thing. Your delusions evoke pity but not credulity.
Brian Curtis says
Stan is a very silly man, but at least his incoherent rage is amusing. He seems mainly ticked off that he and his church aren’t in charge of everyone’s lives, and that people are allowed to–gasp!–disagree without punishment.
Welcome to America, Stan. Maybe you should brush up on your boss’s command to reach out to people with love, instead of sneer and howl at them like a lunatic.
John says
Self defeating behavior seems to be his forte.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Rage? I’m not at all angry. Disappointed yes. But angry no.
Mike says
Of course you are angry. It is clear in your hateful and dishonest diatribe. If you weren’t angry, you wouldn’t engage in your endless torrent of lies and insult.
Dr. Miguelito Loveless says
I have said it before, and will say it again, An altruistic atheist is far more impressive than an altruistic Christian. The latter does good deeds to curry favor, or avoid punishment. The former does good deeds because it is the decent thing to do.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Really? Do you mean the atheistic altruism that permits millions of babies to be murdered and then call it by the weird name “choice?” When at least half of those involved have no choice at all but to die? That kind of altruism you mean?
Or how about those altruistic ideologies that thought they could change human nature? Like communism for example? The kind that killed millions and millions and is still killing.
Or the offshoot of the eugenics movement that resulted in racist ideologies like Nazism? In which American “intellectuals” were very, very influential? To establish racial superiority of northern Europeans? That kind?
I don’t think the idea that there is a superior secular love to Christian love holds much water. Secular love and atheists associated with it have caused far, far too many deaths.
Jason says
‘atheistic altruism that permits millions of babies to be murdered’
Post hoc fallacy.
Atheism does not inform positions on abortion.
‘communism for example. The kind that killed millions and millions.’
Post hoc fallacy. Atheism does not inform political killings.
‘ideologies like Nazism?’
Hitler spoke of doing the ‘Lord’s work’ in killing Jews in Mein Kampf.
The belt buckle of every Nazi officer said ‘Gott mit uns’ or God is with us.
The Nazi oath began ‘Ich schw re being Gott…’ or I swear by God.
The first treaty Germany signed was with the Vatican.
Christianity was the standard bearer of antisemitism and helped culminate the Final Solution.
Atheism takes no position on morality, as it is only a lack of belief in gods.
But most Western atheists typically take a position of secular humanism. It is of course superior to your morality as we have to have coherent reasons for why things are moral, which is based in human well-being. You simply have to follow orders.
Orders, btw, from a god who sanctioned slavery, commanded and committed several genocides (including children and infants), and condemns billions of people to infinite, excrutiating torture for the crime of c̶h̶i̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶b̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶p̶e̶ ̶m̶u̶r̶d̶e̶r̶ not being convinced Yahweh is real. You call this god perfect and all-loving. You worship and offer utter deference to this being.
And you dare condescend to atheists about morality?
Stanley J Gudmundson says
“Atheism does not inform positions on abortion.” In a sense that is correct. However, Christians, who believe in God by the way, do not support abortion. Being a Christian does not allow for it. But being an atheist? Well, you know, whatever. You argue as if atheism is a pure form of belief that is above and beyond trivial things like morality and so on. Doesn’t work that way though, does it?
“Post hoc fallacy. Atheism does not inform political killings.” Yes but communism considered religion to be what, “the opiate of the masses” did it not. And it was and is an atheistic ideology responsible for the deaths of at least 100 million people.
What may have been on the belt buckles of Nazi officer had nothing to do with what Hitler believed. He did not believe in Christianity. As for Christianity being the standard bearer of the “final solution” you need to read a recent biography about Bonhoeffer. He had Bonhoeffer hanged five days before he committed suicide by the way. You might also read a reassessment of the Vatican’s efforts during WWII. You inaccurately tar both the Vatican and Christians.
As for slavery, the Bible is about savings souls, not about creating a human paradise of some kind on earth. Historical context might be helpful too. Keep in mind that about three-quarters of the earth’s populations was still enslaved when our country was founded. As you know, it wasn’t a recent invention. Fredrick Douglas, when he first went north, was amazed to discover that a society could function without slavery.
I dare condescend to atheists about morality? Absolutely. Secular humanism? Does that also mean that atheists believe in natural rights? If so, what are they? And again, all of those dead people killed by atheists for some pie in the sky ideologies to bring heaven on earth.
As for the rest, you have drawn conclusions based on an understanding of the scriptures that is really harsh. There is a lot I don’t know. There is a lot you don’t know. But this I do know, both of us live in a world of faith. You have one kind. I have another.
Now this. If atheists are correct and there is nothing beyond this life, that will be fine. One of my faithful Catholic buddy’s tells his atheist friends that he hopes they are right. In the interim though, I am content, at peace, and don’t worry about my future destiny. And you? Do you have in your heart “the peace that passes understanding?”
Last, if I am right and you are wrong, what then? As a practical matter, atheism carries with it too great a risk.
Rob says
“As for slavery, the Bible is about savings souls, not about creating a human paradise of some kind on earth..”
Then explain why the Bible forbids murder. And stealing. And bearing false witness.
If they Bible is about saving souls it should teach us how to be moral people. So along side those proscriptions against murder and theft it should also say, “Don’t own people” instead, “You can own them and even pass them down to your kids.”
I’m afraid your responses here are just as nonsensical as your article.
Oh, two people get a creepy feeling when they enter a building isn’t so bizarre that it demands some supernatural explanation.. “Proof” like that is so weak that it actually drives people away from belief if they think that’s best you’ve got.
Cassidy McGillicuddy says
Thanks for letting the whole world know that you’re a Christian because unverified threats of future violence work grandly on you. It must be very unpleasant to face hordes of people who don’t fear the horrific fate that so terrorizes you. You don’t even bother trying all that lovey-dovey BS that your peers often start with; you’re just going straight to the threats. And it’s not hard to see you projecting your own fears through these threats, considering how much projection the rest of your writing presents to us.
Before we can fear that which you have feared for what appears to be your entire life, you have to prove to us that it is a real problem that we need to be afraid of. You don’t make a threat sound more convincing by dressing it up in scarier terms and repeating it constantly. That’s not evidence for a claim. There’s never been evidence for Hell–or even really of any kind of afterlife. Someone made you afraid of that fate long ago, probably when you were just a child and defenseless against such blatantly cruel manipulation, and it’s governed your entire life since then. But now you’re presented with people who aren’t afraid of fairy tales like you are. And all you can do is threaten them more and bluster more.
No wonder you pine for your revisionist version of the Wild West. Times probably seemed a lot simpler then (for people just like you, anyway). No wonder your one response to pushback is bleating about persecution (haha, you wish) and thumping your own chest and bringing up completely unrelated topics like your tribe’s totally-manufactured culture war against abortion rights. You can’t even stay on topic within your own mind; you’re just everywhere, and you’re outraged that nobody’s letting you get away with any of it.
Incidentally, your one presentation of PROOF YES PROOF is ridiculous. Nothing about it compels belief toward your particular supernatural claims. But sure, threaten people more with your invisible wizard friend’s punishment. I’m far more afraid of the Magic Invisible Pink Unicorn. At least I can see him and talk to him. I’ve never seen or talked to your god. (Oh, you don’t believe me? WELL, one time when I was really uncertain about a big personal change, I saw a cupcake with a big pink unicorn stuck into the top of it! It was PROOF YES PROOF that the Magic Invisible Pink Unicorn exists! That’s all I need to fear the Unicorn’s magic hooves. When you realize why you’re not afraid of the Trampling, then you’ll understand why I’m not afraid of Hell. Threats don’t become more real through repetition and scary descriptions.)
Cassidy McGillicuddy says
PS: Lots of Christians are totally okay with abortion. In fact, most women seeking abortion care are, in fact, Christians. And men who claim to be against abortion rights tend to switch right around when an unexpected pregnancy threatens to cause trouble in their own personal lives–as shown by the numerous Christian-pandering Republican men who’ve been caught demanding their female partners get abortions at such times. Think that only happens in the GOP? It happens every single day across America. Religious affiliation has very little to do with the abortion rate.
You’re defining Christianity very narrowly, in a way that benefits yourself and your fallacious argument. Nobody is fooled. Nor is anybody who is aware of the anti-abortion fight’s origins fooled by your sanctimonious posturing. It’s not about “saving babies.” It’s not even about lowering abortion rates. Nothing anti-abortion culture warriors is doing has ever had any real impact on either of those problems. What does work is the stuff that your side routinely objects to: comprehensive sex education, freely-available contraception, gender-equality laws that give women greater autonomy, and–yes–strong social support nets that help women keep pregnancies that they couldn’t afford otherwise. But the abortion fight keeps you–you, as in you personally–politicized, and gives you something to posture about and feel superior about.
That’s why your leaders cynically and callously engineered the whole culture war fighting abortion care. They’d tried a bunch of different times to kick-start one, with various moral panics at the center of their efforts. They even tried abortion once–before Roe was decided–but right-wing Christians weren’t biting yet. When Roe passed and Catholics freaked out, your religious leaders very deliberately climbed back into that ring–and into bed with their longtime enemies, to get their muscle and numbers on board with the new moral panic they’d created. You’ve been had. Every single person who uses anti-abortion talking points–as you do, heavily and freely–has been duped by those religious leaders into fighting a war against one of the most fundamental human rights there is: the right to self-ownership and self-determination.
I own me, and you do not. Fundamentally, you want to own me and tell me what I can do with things happening within my own body. I won’t let you. You like the Wild West? Fine. Then maybe you’ll understand this: my body is my homestead. It belongs to me. And I will defend it in every single way I can against those who would squat on my land.
Siva Canjeevaram says
Hey Edmundson
Why should Christ be the only god? (If god is absolute) we (Hindu)love our gods by the “million” if not a billion. If you are a Christian by the book then you should treat me as a “lost” or “unforgivable” or “ sinner” right? This then makes the Christians worst condescending jugs then Sheldon cooper. Come on, let us see you play your dishonest word games.
JohnC says
You seem to regard atheism as some kind of political view, so that you can make atheists answersble for a whole host of atrocities. Here’s the dirty secret. Atheism is merely the belief that there are no gods, or the mere lack of belief in a god. Being an atheist says nothing else about you. There are conservative atheists and liberal atheists. There are pro-choice atheists and pro-life atheists. There are altruistic atheists and bullies who are atheists.
Indeed, the same is true of people who have some form of belief in a god. For that reason, I wouldn’t impugn Jews as “Christ-killers” or Christians as having the blood of the Crusades or the many wars between Catholics and Protestants on their hands. We all could use some more respect.
eric says
1st, no one is killing babies, your ignorance of the very basics of biology is only part of your problem here.
2nd. communism and atheism are not related, atheism relates to a singular topic, and its not economic models.
3rd. refer to 2, and substitute ideologies.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
If a woman’s body or the fetus itself aborts, that is one thing. But it is another thing altogether when human beings interfere with a growing fetus. That’s killing. Learned that when I majored in biology when I took courses in embryology, genetics, and biochemistry and all that other life stuff.
Thomas E.H. says
Hey Stan! When did you take those classes? What’s the difference between being alive and living tissue?
Stanley J Gudmundson says
To Mr. Thomas EH below. The “living tissue” argument is irrelevant. The relevant question is, are humans interfering with a fetus (your living tissue) for some reason other than to save the life of the mother? If the answer is yes, then that interference (killing) is wrong.
Thomas E.H. says
Stan, the living tissue argument is NOT irrelevant, because killing living tissue isn’t the same as killing a human being with consciousness.
Don’t forget that the Bible uses the word “murder” not simply kill. Murder is different than killing. Especially when it comes to living tissue without consciousness.
Mike says
First off, get this clear. Abortion is not immoral. Opposition to it is. You are completely without morals based entirely on this position.
A non-viable embryo or fetus with no functioning brain is not a human being with rights. Full stop. if you disagree, you are both evil and idiotic. It is immoral to deny the basic human and constitutional rights of women in America in favor of that which is not a human being.
Further, even if we accept for the sake of argument the moronic idea that a non-viable embryo with no brain function is a human being, abortion is still wrong. You see, if I need a kidney and you are a match, I can’t force you to give me a kidney. It is against the law in this great secular republic to force a person to give so much as a blood donation for someone else against their will. Get it?
It is sad that you would be so dishonest as to claim education in “all that other life stuff” when you are too ignorant to correctly identify a human being.
Now, grow up. Stop the lies. Stop the misogyny and hatred. Just stop.
Ryan Chesmore says
So what do you think abortion really is? Is it not terminating the life of an unborn child? Ignorance of science is not an argument against it.
Richard Carter says
Mr. gudmunson,
You obviously haven’t done any actual studying about atheism; and it appears you prefer to echo untrue assumptions about it, many of which are based from the premise that is someone isn’t religious, they are evil and automatically aligned with evil actions, beliefs, and speech. Unfortunately, you have not been willing to actually read any of the works of published non-believers.
Firstly, Atheism in not a religion. Never has been. It is not in competition with other religions. It is not populated by nothing but evil people. It is simply a believe that we do not know many things, including whether there is a god, just as you can’t factually and evidentially prove there is one. What many Atheist do agree on is that we prefer to believe that which is supported by factual evidence. Historically we know there have been tens of thousands of religions in man’s history, and we know that nearly all have been found to be mythology. As Richard Dawkins so plainly put it, “We just chose to take it one god further”.
May I suggest that BEFORE you maintain your position on religion, just try to read a few authors from the free-thinking side of it all. Understand the differences between theists and diests; between humanism and free-thinking, atheism, and those similar. You just may find there may be points you agree with. And for your own sake, please stop showing the world just how uninformed you are. Theism or anti-theism has nothing to do with actions such as killing babies, communism, naziism, or any other ‘ism’.
You truly need to at least inform yourself first hand about what you are writing about.
Ryan Chesmore says
Oh contrare monfrare. We have studied your illogical belief system. That’s why we know atheism is a lie, atheists are liars, etc. not that you would admit that.
Mike says
Pathetic when ignorant trolls just can’t keep quiet.
Ryan, you know nothing and have noth9ing of value to say.
Herp says
Assuming you are referring to abortion, which has nothing to do with killing babies, there are atheists who don’t want abortion to be legalized,
Atheism isn’t communism. Certain versions of Communism on the social side of things adopted atheism, but they also adopted firearms. Are firearms communist too?
Atheism isn’t eugenics, nor is it Nazism. Eugenics was influenced by Evolution and gene theory, both of which have nothing to do with atheism. There are Christians who still believe in evolution and gene theory.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Oh sure, atheism is just a benign view of reality. You can’t make that case. If you connect the dots that is just plain silly. Abortion has nothing to do with killing babies? Do you mean to say that murdering babies is not killing babies? Wow!
Thomas E.H. says
Atheism has nothing to do with abortion, my man, Stan! Last time I heard, about 70% of women who had abortions considered themselves Christians. So, looks like it has less to do with the lack of belief in a deity than you think.
Also, consider the monetary exchange in the Bible when it comes to causing a woman to abort the unborn. It’s not life-for-life, eye-for-eye, tooth-for-tooth like it is if you kill a person out of the womb.
Herp says
Nope. A fetus is not a baby.
Mike says
As I explained before, a non-viable embryo is not a human being. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Why do hateful, misogynist christians keep spouting this repugnant lie? Surely not even a christian (who is capable of believing that there was a world wide flood or that evolution didn’t happen) can be idiotic enough to actually believe this “murder” stupidity.
Ryan Chesmore says
Abortion is the termination of the life of an unborn being? Shall I terminate your life the same way abortion doctors do, and then claim it’s not killing or murdering a being that has no choice?
Cat says
I note that you do not deny that when atheists do good it’s because it’s the decent thing to do, while Christians are motivated by reward or punishment.
Your letter and comments reveal your utter ignorance about atheists and atheism. Whether one believes in a god is a binary question: the answer is yes or no. If one answers no, then one is an atheist. That is the extent of atheism. Answering no to one question.
My question is, is your failure to understand this a genuine failure of understanding or are you being deliberately obtuse? Given how simple atheism is, you’re not doing yourself any favors when you continue to misunderstand this simple yes/no concept. What part of “no” do you not understand?
Ryan Chesmore says
We are not the utter ignorant ones. You atheists proclaim science as if it is your God. You act as if science is the only solid truth out there.
Mike says
Wrong. Science is a method of determining facts about the actual world around us and formulation theories to explain and predict. It is the only solid truth. I’m sorry your dearly held fantasies are not factual, but that’s the way it is.
The trouble with thoughtless people like you is that you are so limited in your faculties that you make all your important decisions based on faith. Since you are arrogant and can’t accept that there are those of us who have progressed past that kind magical thinking into something more mature and reasonable, you ascribe faith based “reason” to others. Don’t do that. Don’t assume that atheists share your limitations.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
You really don’t understand the Christian faith at all do you.
Cassidy McGillicuddy says
We understand it way better than you do, as you have displayed HERE in these comments on numerous occasions. You understand neither Christianity’s great theological principles, nor atheism. There’re a lot of things you don’t understand, not that it stops you, bless your little cotton socks!
I don’t think the folks here understand that you are a pure distillation of right-wing Christian culture war thinking, a head-to-toe repository of disproven and non-credible talking points and fallacies. It’s downright fascinating to see how closely you hew to the stereotype.
You long ago decided that the Great Command isn’t interesting at all, and you’ve clearly abandoned the Great Commission. You’re failing both of the orders that Jesus is supposed to have directly given his followers, and you don’t even care. And this, too, is perfectly normal and expected. As the religion continues to decline, we’re going to see a lot more of Christians just like you.
Ryan Chesmore says
Aww you think you know more about Christianity than Christians. I’d call you a liar. Cuz that’s what you are doing, lying.
Just because most of you so-called atheists are former believers, that does not make you know the faith anymore than you claim you did. You know nothing of Christianity only of what you’ve been brainwashed or indoctrinated or deceived to believe.
If you understood the Bible at all, understood the evidence for the Bible, you couldn’t any longer consider yourself an atheist, that is, unless you keep lying to yourself about the evidence, as all atheists love to do.
You all live in complete denial that it takes much more faith to be atheist than it does to be Christian. The Christian is only required to have faith the size of a mustard seed, and just believe. Funny, you claim to not have faith, but then you must have evidence God isn’t real, doesn’t exist, etc. Oh the irony. You realize the dictionary definition of faith is to have belief in something as fact without evidence. Well that pretty much describes you atheists quite well. You don’t have scientific evidence God doesn’t exist, you have no historical evidence God doesn’t exist, so that’s a faith-based belief.
Mike says
Yes. I do know the christian faith better then most of it’s adherents. First off, I know there is not now and never has been a good reason to accept it as real.
Your fundamental flaw, your most profound foolishness is this: “You don’t have scientific evidence God doesn’t exist, you have no historical evidence God doesn’t exist, so that’s a faith-based belief.”
Atheists do not need evidence. Those making the claim that there is a go need to present evidence of their claims. This profound inability to understand basic logic and reason is why you are such an utter failure.
Herp says
If you can’t understand something as simple as atheism, you really are in no position to tell us what we can’t understand.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I guess the concept of atheism being a faith is too simple for you to understand.
Thomas E.H. says
It is indeed too simple, Stan! It’s far too simple. You reckon there may be concepts out there without simple answers? Please don’t be too simple. You’ve got it in you to recognise that when you state: “Atheism is X, Y, and Z” and get a whole bunch of blokes like me saying, “Naw, I’m an atheist and really it’s only the lack of belief in deities.” you’d think you might fight that simple enough. But perhaps the simple is too complex for some. Not you, though. I think you understand, but just like to press buttons because, well, I won’t speculate on why, but I’m sure you know the answer.
KL says
I was a Catholic for years and came to the conclusion, after a lot of reading and rereading of the bible and studying world religions, that I don’t believe in a higher power and that if people having faith in a higher power helps them get through life, that is fine but keep it to yourselves. Christians are far more notorious for forcing their beliefs on others, you don’t know that because you are one and have probably never had anyone try to indoctrinate you. So perhaps you should actually educate yourself about atheism, and other religions. While your at it, reread your bible, it’s pretty obvious that you need to refresher course on your Christ’s teachings to remember how to be a good Christian.
Herp says
Let me know when your concept makes it into a dictionary.
Mike says
Atheism is not a faith. It is too bad that fat is seemingly beyond your capacity. Until you can admit you are wrong on this, nothing you say is of any value. You are just a silly little man engaging in a strawman of those more reasonable then he.
NoGods-NoMasters! says
I would like to show my appreciation of the following responses which are absolutely spot on!
Reply #1: George says
May 16, 2018 at 6:09 am
God gave us a brain, not just a dusty old book. Use it.
(Using our brain? You mean that awful thing called “reason”? Surely you jest or to quote that viciously anti-semitic, misogynistic Martin Luther: ““Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
The article is so perfectly in keeping and a good illustration of Luther’s hatred of thought and reason!)
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Reply #2: John Harrington says
May 15, 2018 at 6:46 pm
Yeah, those atheists are so intolerant.
I get sick of atheists coming to my door trying to convert me to atheism. I get sick of seeing The God Delusion in every hotel room. I hate how they have to have their big capital “A” on everything, every street corner, hanging around their necks, on every mountaintop they can arrogate to their belief system. I hate how they corner me in the lunchroom and tell me I need Darwin in my life.
I hate how they put into law in almost every state that religious people can’t run for public office. I hate how they fought for decades to deny other people the right to marry. How they made people hide their sexuality or be fired or evicted … simply because they disagreed with it. How they even attempt to force their beliefs into people’s private medical decisions. I hate how atheists fly airplanes into buildings, fight for decades over what happens to a wafer on Sundays, and invade other lands and force the inhabitants to think like they do.
I hate how they put “In No God We Trust” on our money. I hate how they force my children to say “under no God” in a daily pledge. I hate how atheists routinely disown their children when they become religious and force them to live on the street … to the point that cities have to set up special programs just to deal with this problem. And I really hate how they tell everyone who disagrees with them that they deserve to be tortured forever.
Oh wait. (Absolutely brilliant, am so stealing this one!)
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Reply #3: guy ramsbottom says
May 15, 2018 at 10:13 am
Dear Stan,
Does santa exist?
I don’t believe Santa exists. Do you agree?
Is my assertion that Santa does not exist a belief?
How about unicorns?
Do we really have to say that dismissing something due to lack of any evidence is the same as believing it exists with the same lack of evidence?
Now what is someone claimed that Santa does exist, furthermore they know the thoughts of said Santa and that Santa disagrees with your actions and wants you to stop.
Would you have a problem with that?
Would you vocalize your issue of would you stay silent?
Would you sit back as laws were implemented on the basis of a subjective interpretation of a book that believers state contains the thoughts and ideas of their Santa?
Say Santa had a problem with your sexuality? Perhaps Santa has such an influence over laws that your very actions are criminalized.
Would you stand up then?
Or would you sit back?
It’s a genuine question.
Guy ((I don’t think the author has the courage or the argumentative chops to answer your extremely Thought-provoking question…. oopps! that’s gone and “done it”, I used the terrible “T” word in around Stan!.)
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arensb says
May 16, 2018 at 1:10 pm
“I wonder what goes through an atheists mind as he or she approaches their last breath . I’ll bet most of you will be a little nervous entering eternity. You should be. —–Stan”
I knew the threats would show up sooner or later.
“Nice soul you got there. Shame if anything was to… happen to it.”
(But you should realize that all theists really have to promote their Ultimate Chain-Letter are threats and like all chain letters we also have the the evidenceFREE bribery that if we belly-crawl in pants-wetting, self-degrading F-E-A-R to Stan’s alleged God we’ll be “rewarded” with a post-mortem “treat”, a Heaven Cookie)
Hey, Stan, are you going to Heaven? If, yes, guess where I DO NOT want to be (the idea of be trapped for eternity with your God so aptly described below (h/t to Richard Dawkins!):
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” (agree 100%!)
AND His chosen peeps (such a malignant, narcissistic sadist would want only the most groveling masochistic sycophants as “mirrors”) disgusts/horrifies me to no end (no words in English to adequately describe my complete/total horror at the thought of such entrapment!).
Lambchop Suey says
The original Star Trek episode “The Alternative Factor” has a decent enough description:
“There is, of course, no escape. How would it be? Trapped forever with a raging madman at your throat until time itself came to a stop? For eternity. How would it be?”
Ryan Chesmore says
Only problem with that is the god delusion book has been thoroughly debunked.
Mike says
Wrong. God is a delusion. If you want to claim otherwise, pony up with evidence. Otherwise, this is a proven lie… and what does that make you?
David in Palm Springs says
“In my case, there is concrete evidence that God intervened in my life. I won’t get into the details except to say it is fact.”
I find it funny that the author supposedly has proof that a supernatural being exists, but (for some unknown reason) doesn’t want to share this very important information with the rest of the world. Instead we’re given a gripping story about a tourist shop that was creepy. As if that somehow proves that God was telling them to escape before something (theoretically) happened to them. I hate to break it to the author, but the threshold for proving the existence of a supernatural being is slightly higher than “I got goosebumps”.
George says
I know a senior citizen who claims he is a “Christian.” He says that all men have sex with their daughters because it’s “in the bible” and it’s healthy. (He also said his daughter hasn’t spoken to him in 20 years). He said he is planning to purchase an RV to travel the country, and is planning to bring along AR-15 rifles for his wife and him. I asked him why he would find that necessary. He thinks it will be acceptable soon to kill Muslims whenever he chooses. He has been told never to step on my property again and has been reported to the authorities. Islamophobes are the most ignorant form of coward alive in my opinion.
Richard says
Oh well, …. such a loving soul. I’ve always marvelled at how christians deal with seeking forgiveness. Scenario: Person 1 aggregiously harms Person 2. Then to satisfy his/her guilt, (s)he sets about praying to an imaginary Person 3, and assumes that when he/she is tired of all that boring praying, he or she has been granted absolution, and is good to go. Unfortunately, Person 2 never receives anything.
Anyone else see the ridiculousness in it all???
George says
Reminds me of the school shootings. The innocent victims are person 2. Of course most of person one are praying that their guns are safe. The “thoughts and prayers” thing is about as sincere as an acquaintance saying “how are you” walking by on the sidewalk.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Imaginary person? Sorry, Bubba you just don’t get it. You will though. Eventually.
Cat says
Again with the threats. Your words are empty so the only thing you can do is threaten us that we’ll get ours, we’ll see! yeah, we’ll see when your big friend shows up and puts us all in our place!
The abominable fancy suits you fine.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I can’t threaten anyone. But does the possibility of God’s existence threaten you? Why?
Cat says
@ Stanley, correct, you cannot actually threaten anyone because you have nothing to threaten us with. Your telling us that we will meet and be punished by your god is as valid a threat as if a person calling themselves Deatheater were to tell me they are reporting me to Voldemort. You cannot credibly threaten anyone with a fictional character.
On the other hand, your apparently gleeful anticipation of our suffering in Hell is disturbing, because it’s creepy to see a person with so little compassion as you. You are the perfect embodiment of “Christian love” – which if you were in touch with reality you would understand is not a compliment.
Ryan Chesmore says
It’s no threat, it is reality. Something you deny
Mike says
Bubba? How sad. You witless theists really can’t handle being called out on your foolishness and immorality, can you?
EdmondWherever says
You’re getting a lot of that “contempt and vitriol” in the replies here, and that’s too bad. It’s true that there are a lot of rude and angry people out there (however that’s true about any group), but I’d prefer to see replies which specifically address the points you make. I’ll try to do some of that.
“Why do certain atheists continually proselytize their faith?”
I’m not so sure that they DO. Where are you experiencing this happening? It is not a common practice for atheists to go door-to-door, or to stand on college campuses with a megaphone. If you are getting into those types of conversations online, that may not be the same thing as “proselytizing”. If you willingly visit atheist websites, then they are not coming to you, you have gone to them. If you write essays like this on your own site, then you are effectively inviting a discussion. These are not examples of proselytizing.
In any case, is it your intention to depict proselytizing as an unwanted behavior? That may not be the best approach, when coming from a believer.
“Why do atheists use their faith to try destroy mine? With their contempt and vitriol, what are they trying to accomplish? Theirs is a faith without hope. So what is the motive in pushing it? Who gave them this mission?”
Again, it’s unfortunate that some people choose to be uncivil and impolite when they debate this subject. But not all of us are. Many of just feel that religion does a lot of harm in the world. It promotes a distrust of science, it fosters division and exclusion, and it often seems to victimize the vulnerable. Rather than seeing it as “destroying your faith”, we see it as trying to use reason and critical thinking to encourage you to change your mind. The motive is to create a better world where people make sound decisions based on good evidence. I assure you, we are each capable of giving this mission to ourselves.
“No God they say?”
SOME say that. Not all. Throughout your essay, you appear to use Gnostic atheists as the model for your discussion. Gnostics believe they have the knowledge needed to claim that zero gods exist. However, it’s been my experience that this is a small proportion of our community, and that most are actually Agnostic atheists. Agnostics will admit to lacking the knowledge necessary to make claims about the number of gods, but zero is the number that have convinced us of their existence so far. I think you would be representing a far greater number of atheists in your essay if you addressed agnostic atheists rather than gnostics.
In fact, by selecting gnostics instead, it might be fair to characterize you as “strawmanning”. You may have deliberately chosen the smaller group to avoid the points made by the larger.
“You must conclude that there is no God based totally on an act of faith. It is impossible not to.”
You see, agnostics avoid this problem, by refusing to make any such conclusion, one way or the other. Perhaps there are gods, perhaps there are not. We cannot know, and without that knowledge we are not justified in taking either position and calling it “true”.
Besides, you contradict this statement later in your article, when you say, “In my case, there is concrete evidence that God intervened in my life. I won’t get into the details except to say it is fact.”
So which is it? Is it impossible to reach these conclusions without faith? Or is faith unnecessary due to the presence of evidence?
Of all the things which atheists ask for in these discussions, evidence is usually at the very top of the list. And yet when you have the perfect opportunity to present some, you simply “won’t get into the details.” But the details are exactly what we are looking for! It’s very disappointing for you to breeze past this important point, and it does not bolster the credibility of your argument.
“Once a Christian friend and I were visiting a touristy town in California…. As we walked out the door, she asked, did you feel that? She had experienced what I had.”
Had she? Are you sure? Again, more details are what we need, if we are to make an assessment of your claim. You do not describe the nature of your conversation with her after this incident. Did she confirm to feeling the same “get out” sensation that you did? You were in California, after all…. perhaps she felt a small earthquake tremor, and was merely asking if you felt THAT, and had no knowledge of your eerie experience.
Did there, in fact, turn out to be “something truly terrible, truly evil” there? Were your fears validated?
Are you aware of the phenomenon in which very low-frequency sounds can induce sensations of fear or dread? Is it possible that some location in this “touristy” town may have been using this tactic, to create a “spine-tingling” experience for its visitors? It wouldn’t even have had to have been located in an establishment you visited, it could have just been one nearby.
There are a lot of possibilities, and my point is that it is premature to jump to one conclusion without first gathering more information, and conducting a more in-depth investigation. Without reliable data to examine, the best conclusion we can reach is, “who knows?” But you seem to take it further, while simultaneously scolding atheists for making similarly unjustified conclusions.
“Atheists don’t know what it is like to live in God’s grace in the fellowship of believers. How sad.”
I suppose it would have to be up to God when choosing who lives in his grace and who doesn’t. If he’s real, then none of us could force him to include us in that protection. But it hardly seems just and merciful for him to exclude us simply because we prefer evidence over faith. This preference should not be treated as a “crime”, worthy of punishment. Caution and skepticism should be hailed as virtues. We use them in every other aspect of our lives, but we are shamed for it if we use them regarding religion. To me, this is what seems sad. I feel this produces people who are gullible and easily manipulated (as well as producing many master manipulators), it discourages people from asking introspective questions, and it makes them needlessly suspicious of those who do.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Looks like I touched a nerve, or a lot of nerves, with this article. I expected a whole lot of feedback from the “I believe there is no God faith” and along with it, a great deal of convoluted “logic” and wild assertions. That one about low frequencies is really special Not surprising.
The intensity and number of furious responses indicates that those of the atheist faith don’t like their miserable faith questioned. The faith they hold up as a rational response to the requirement to choose one or the other about the existence or “non-existence” of God. But it is a faith. You are proving it before our eyes. Be good enough to admit it.
MSOwolf says
The only “nerve” you’ve “touched”,is the ridiculous one. What facts? There are none. What “faith”? Atheists have about as much “faith”,as we do “gods”,
” In my case, there is concrete evidence that God intervened in my life. I won’t get into the details except to say it is fact.
And this. Once a Christian friend and I were visiting a touristy town in California. As we entered one establishment, I heard in my brain a shout, “get out, get out, you don’t belong in here.” I was overwhelmed with the horrible feeling of being in presence of something truly terrible, truly evil. The hair on the back of my neck and arms stood straight up.
I told myself that I was never going to tell anyone about this. No one would believe me. Or they would think something else about me. We didn’t stay long.
When my friend, who was ahead of me, turned and looked at me, she had a really funny look on her face. As we walked out the door, she asked, did you feel that? She had experienced what I had.”
So what was this “evil”? And where’s the “concrete evidence”? You speak in riddles,like a dog,chasing it’s own tail…..No Evidence,No Facts,Just Mumbo Jumbo…..
Stanley J Gudmundson says
You have no idea sir, how intense and powerful that experience was. Not only for me but also for my friend. I can’t speak for her but I’ve never encountered anything like it before or since. What was it? Evil, That is all I know.
Telling about this event disturbs atheists to no end. Obviously, because it calls into question their faith about nothing existing outside of what we normally perceive on a daily basis. It also reflects an arrogant confidence in humanities understanding, actually lack thereof, of what reality is and what is beyond what we normally experience.
Herp says
Just because you feel something intense and powerful, doesn’t prove a god did it. You have no idea what caused that feeling, and neither do you.
The only thing that is disturbing atheists about this is that you seem to believe whatever fits your narrative and narrow assumptions. That kind of thinking is what lead to the witch hunts. That kind of thinking lead to the Mayans ripping each other’s hearts out to appease a ‘god’ they felt was real.
” It also reflects an arrogant confidence in humanities understanding, actually lack thereof, of what reality is and what is beyond what we normally experience.”
Oh the irony.
Jason says
Argument from Ignorance.
Chantay Robinson says
Actually, it calls into question instinct. I’ve had similar experiences my whole life, usually right before some trouble maker starts throwing fists, a guy tries grabbing me in the night, or a snake starts rattling. That you have experienced this once is odd to me and suggests a rather weak instinct reaction. I’m guessing you’ve had few reasons to use them, not many do anymore. I’m wondering however what you consider to be evil.
Mike says
The problem here is that you are clearly delusional. You say you encountered some great evil manifestation or something? Nonsense. Seek counseling. You are unwell.
Telling a ghost story that obviously never really happened doesn’t scare anyone… unless the teller actually believes it. Then we should all fear for the teller’s mental health.
Ryan Chesmore says
You have been provided evidence, but you, like many of your convoluted friends, just hand wave away the evidence.
Ruaidhri says
“The faith they hold up as a rational response to the requirement to choose one or the other about the existence or “non-existence” of God.”
Stanley, faith requires an assertion/belief that one commits to without substantiating evidence. Atheism doesn’t and therefore isn’t necessarily a faith, as you term it. Atheism, in its purest sense, is simply the lack of belief in the existence of god(s). It is not necessarily an assertion that they don’t exist. If it was, then you could debate whether it was a faith system. However, given that those atheists that do assert no gods exist (a sub-segment of atheists) are likely working off the strong premise that human beings have wrongly believed in gods (and all manner of other supernatural phenomena) countless times throughout our history, then this reliance on demonstrable evidence means that assertion is not at all a faith the way religious belief could be considered to be. They base that belief on the fact that, when faced with a gap in our understanding of nature and the origins of natural phenomena (ranging from lightning, thunder, tidal waves, the movement of the sun, disease – right up to the origins of nature itself) we, as a species, appear to have been inclined to make gods and other myths up as an explanation. Doing so at any time is, in all probability, another mistake being made.
Ryan Chesmore says
How is it not a faith? You just admitted that the definition of faith is asserting something as fact with no evidence. So you believe no Gods exist, and it’s purely faith based. Otherwise you would have evidence.
Jason says
Again, thanks for undermining your own religion with your derogatory remarks about faith.
You clearly understand faith is not to be respected.
But to say ‘I don’t believe you’re requires no faith.
Ryan Chesmore says
So then atheism is not to be respect by your own admission. Atheism is purely faith based. If not, you’d have evidence .
KC R says
“The intensity and number of furious responses indicates that those of the atheist faith don’t like their miserable faith questioned.”
Here it is guys! Just like I predicted in my earlier response to EdmondWherever. Stan insults Atheists; calls them angry. Atheists respond with anger. Stan says ‘see, I knew those damn Atheists were always angry!’ Stan acts like he is the one being attacked. This is how many apologists act. They have a persecution complex. They spread hate, lies, & misinformation, but are absolutely flabbergasted when it comes back to them. They know how to play the victim well. It’s like being in a manipulative relationship. It is a sign of psychosis. I don’t think it is the Atheists here who are miserable Stan. I think it’s you.
Herp says
Those tactics may have worked back in the middle ages where class and authority were everything, and everyone were expected to take every word of the church as gospel.
Now we live in an age of information, where anyone can be wrong, regardless of class or status. We have the scientific method as a superior model for discovering what is real and what is not. Shaming tactics only work on the under-educated. We are now one of the most educated generations in the history of mankind.
Ryan Chesmore says
So you have evidence apologists do this stuff you claim? Or is it your faith speaking for you?
Richard Carter says
Sorry Mr. Gudmunson,
But that is just one of the many errors you use as a premise: You believe Atheism is a religion.
Atheism is not a religion. I doubt you will ever understand that, or admit to it if you did understand it; but, it is similar to me imitating your logic by saying polio is caused by car accidents. It simply is not true. The facts bear it out that polio is caused by a virus, and that was discovered by a lot of hard work by scientists devoted to finding a cure and helping others.
As for all the angst you accuse non-believers of, please read your article again, and honestly, really, honestly, tell me if you aren’t expressing just a little bit of upset on your part. Otherwise, why would you write such an article?
All the non-believers I know are not organized. We simply live our lives productively, contributing to the better good of man and this world. We know many religions accuse us of being dangerous, evil, without morals, even in some cases aligned with someone they call Satan, whoever that is.
But we’re not, we simply don’t believe the same as you. Similarly, and only as one example of the countradictions we find in your religion: In your religion, if someone doesn’t accept your god and believe in Jesus, they are going to a very, very bad place after they die. (Not to mention being denigrated in articles like yours.) That would include all the billions of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, followers of Confucism, Iskcons, Jainists, Tshintus, Mahayanas, Pagans, Shaivites, Shaktas, Sikhs, Taoists, Theravadas, Vaishnavites, Vajrayanas, and practitioners of Zen; just to name a few. Oh, and let’s include all the flavors of ‘non-believers’ like Atheists Agnostic and Nostics alike, Free Thinkers, and including me of all people.) Now, according to your religion (and a few others), if all the aforementioned believers of these other religions and belief systems spend their lives as honest, giving, caring and loving people; giving to others, being kind and respectful, they too will be going to that very, very bad place after they pass on, simply because they don’t believe in the same god and/or scriptures and cultures that your religion prescribes. The Scriptures of your religion say so. So, do you really think that is the case? And if so, would that dictate be that of a loving and caring god? Do you really think that your Jesus intended you to treat others in that manner? Just a thought, but just one of many that gave us non-believers the thought of seeing what all those other perspectives from other belief systems had to say about how to live one’s life. In other words, we objectively wanted to hear from all sides of the table. And after doing so, for many of us, none of the belief systems provided objective, demonstrable facts. Therefore, until they can and do, we prefer to simply say, “We don’t know”. And that is what we profess. That is what Atheism is about. Again, it is NOT a religion. It is NOT an anti-religion. It is simply an objective opinion that is looking for answers and has yet to hear any that fulfill the facts we know.
We tend to believe in the scientific; and foremost because it is based on factual observation. The problem we find with the religious communities bashing science is they (the religious communities) seem to believe that the science community is saying that their facts are universally held and superior to those of the religious communities. However, any good scientist will tell you that any scientific discovery BEGS to be disproven. In other words, science never stops. It builds upon itself, discovering more and more, based on what it learned earlier; and each later discovery disproves the previous, at least in part. It takes no shame in proving itself wrong and readily admits to it. And that is what SCIENCE is. In comparison, religion consistently provides the answer that some supreme diety “did it”, or “caused it”, or “demanded it”. If that’s true, there isn’t any need to try anymore. Your and my lives are pre-determined and no matter what we do is inconsequential. We are to believe in what is handed to us in previous beliefs and seek no more, even though those scriptures counterdict themselves many, many times, and have outlived their timeliness. We, non-believers, chose to not believe those assumptions. We know we can do things of our own choosing that are good and honest and benevolent for those beyond ourselves, and we do those things because we choose to. It’s self-determination; and there’s no reason to condemn us for it. We are harming no one, including you. We are making as much goodness out of life as we can.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
I never said and am not saying that atheism is a religion. It is however, a faith. Having said that however, it is really interesting to note how intolerant many of you are for those who believe in God. Looking down your noses at us as if there are disparate IQ differences between you (very high) and us (Neanderthals). Your faith seems pretty angry. And arrogant.
Richard Carter says
Again, we are defending against your comments which were/are the starting points for this entire thread. It is you who tossed the stone, in what appears to be a public defaming of those who don’t share your beliefs, and specifically atheists. You wrote the article, as insulting as it is. We are responding to it, giving you counterpoints and hopefully creating an opportunity to correct in the public eye those written statements you have made.
Again, atheism is not a faith. You just refuse to understand that. We have iterated that to you over and over again, but you persist with your unilateral opinion.
As for who is looking down who’s nose, are you looking in a mirror….?
You have maligned us with communism, fascism, naziism, and as killers of babies. Why? Where is all that hate and contempt coming from??
To be frank, I’ve found no more honest and forthright people in my life than those I know to be free-thinkers, which includes atheists. And not once have I EVER, in sixty-seven years, found one to be anti-social. I just don’t know why you appear to consider atheists and other Free Thinkers to be of the pre-historic opinion of witches, lepricons and other mystical and mythological evil-doers. It’s a shame you have walled yourself off from so many honest, accomplishing, caring and loving people, simply because you appear to hold so much untrue contempt for them. You are losing out on so much in life.
Ryan Chesmore says
Richard, I find your opinion very interesting, but yet false. God loves everyone. The issue is if you reject Jesus Christ, you are paying for your sins. Since Christ died for the sins of humanity, you either accept him as your savior, or you don’t, which therefor means, by contrast, that you go to hell, not because God is sending you there, but because you send yourself there by your own life’s actions.
Lambchop Suey says
Mr. Gudmundson, have you ever heard of the psychological phenomenon called “projection”? That’s where a person, like you, ascribes his own motivations, feelings, and reactions to others without having any idea what those others are actually about.
So when you use your best hyperbole and your most emphatic inflammatory rhetoric, you’re telling us ALL about yourself!
Isn’t psychology FUN??
Stanley J Gudmundson says
True, psychology is fun. If you applied the transference concept properly, as in my case, it would be even more interesting.
Lambchop Suey says
You try, but your efforts are woefully inadequate. We all see right through you and, more importantly, you are FAILING in your responsibility to carry out the Great Commission, and you are FAILING to manifest the Great Commandment.
So YOU are a failure to your jeezis – what happens in your theology to the incompetent, inept salespeople who, instead of “baptizing them in the name of the father, and the son, and the holy ghost”, actually *DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY* from Christianity?
Ryan Chesmore says
Only problem, atheists project too. They project their atheist faith onto the religious community.
KC R says
EdmondWherever,
You make some really good arguments here. I appreciate that you chose not to engage Stan using demeaning language & insults. However, his piece is written with extreme bias in mind. He throws in insults & insinuations without hesitation. He should’ve anticipated significant push back based on the message he is spreading. Instead, I think Stan feels validated in associating Atheists with negativity when he reads negative comments. If Stan were truly interested in understanding Atheists better, he would have left out all the slander. Instead, he went for a hit-piece on Atheists and cried persecution when someone called him out on it.
Herp says
That’s the think that I love about the new generation. People are more interested in facts and not appeal to emotion.
I feel like Stan believes that what he is doing will win more converts, just like in the olden days when people always appealed to emotion. What he doesn’t understand is that those days are long gone. People usually read the comments after reading an article, because they know that that is where the real information lies.
Already many atheists have countered Stan’s points, and instead of defending his position like a mature adult, he cries ‘persecution!’ and stomps his feet like a child. People these days don’t look up to people like that any more. We are not an authoritarian theocratic society, we are a knowledge-driven one. We only care about the cold hard facts.
Ryan Chesmore says
What cold, hard facts does atheism have?
Jason says
So much buffoonery here, Stan. Really, top notch.
‘atheists proselytize their faith’
Thanks for admitting proselytizing faith is obnoxious and unwanted.
However, atheism doesn’t require faith.
‘hate for God and his followers’
Well, Yahweh is a really ugly god. A quick perusal of the Bible demonstrates that.
Thankfully, there’s no reason to think such a psychopath exists.
Unfortunately, the theology that people believe carry many untrue and grossly immoral doctrines. If I hate anything, it’s these beliefs.
‘insisting there is no Creator’
Not atheism, Stan. I don’t believe in gods. I’m not asserting there are no gods as I could never test such claim.
Burden of proof lies with you to prove Yahweh.
‘again, in an act of faith’
Thanks for admitting faith is not to be respected.
But it’s you that indulge in that nonsense, not me.
Way to step on that rake, Stan.
‘incredible arrogance and hubris’
I’m not that one that claims they Creator of everything, caretaker of 100 billion galaxies and the infinite beyond knows me, cares about me, talks to me, has a relationship with me, and has a special spot reserved next to him in eternal bliss.
I’m not the one who thinks the Earth is the center of the universe and that homo sapiens, 2% different than chimpanzees, are the only beings that ultimately matter.
I’ve been called arrogant, but I could never push it this far.
‘No God they say?’
No, they don’t. If you feel compelled to denigrate atheists, perhaps you should actually know what atheism is, Stan.
‘To contend evolution says there is no God, is a non-starter’
Agreed! It is a non-starter as it’s a straw man. Evolution says nothing about the existence of gods. In fact, there are more theists who accept evolution than atheists who do.
The only reason some theists oppose evolution is that it shatters fundamentalist theology.
‘What interests me is what existed before the Big Bang and how it got there. There is no answer’
Yes, so we should say ‘I don’t know, therefore we should investigate further’. Instead, you say, ‘I don’t know, therefore it must be the desert god Yahweh.’
This is an Argument from Ignorance fallacy.
‘explain away this encounter to me’
I would need to know more about this establishment, Stan. There could have been something about the environment that made you both feel that way.
Again, if your answer is ‘evil was there’ or ‘God was warning me’ then you are making another Argument from Ignorance.
‘concrete evidence’
No, it’s not, Stan. Again, it’s an Argument from Ignorance.
To suggest that you felt something evil in a place is ‘concrete ‘evidence’ of the Middle Eastern desert war god Yahweh v.2.0 is utterly ridiculous and tells me you have completely surrendered your critical faculties.
‘How sad. So, we pray for them. Apparently, for some, we must pray harder.’
Boy, I just feel the warm love of Jesus shine through.
Stan, this article is littered with fallacies and indicates you’ve never (or hardly ever) spoken to an atheist or ever had to defend your beliefs before.
Lambchop Suey says
I can assert when a god doesn’t exist. When a god is defined in self-contradictory terms, it can be rejected the same way we would reject the concept of a “square circle”. It is nonsense, and, thus, actually *requires* that we reject it.
So any god that is defined in self-contradictory terms can be dismissed as nonsensical and not worthy of our consideration. Like the Christians’ jeez or gawd or whatever. It’s all garbage.
CRITICAL atheism, as George H. Smith defines in his article, “The Scope of Atheism” (https://web.archive.org/web/20061210084852/http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/smith.htm), is defined as follows:
Critical atheism presents itself in various forms. It is often expressed by the statement, “I do not believe in the existence of a god or supernatural being.” This profession of nonbelief often derives from the failure of theism to provide sufficient evidence in its favor. Faced with a lack of evidence, this explicit atheist sees no reason whatsoever for believing in a supernatural being.
Critical atheism also assumes stronger forms, such as, “God does not exist” or, “The existence of a god is impossible.” These assertions are usually made after a particular concept of god, such as the God of Christianity, is judged to be absurd or contradictory. Just as we are entitled to say that a “square-circle” does not and cannot possibly exist, so we are entitled to say that the concept of god, if it entails a contradiction, does not and cannot possibly exist.
Finally, there is the critical atheist who refuses to discuss the existence or nonexistence of a god because he believes that the concept of “god” is unintelligible. We cannot, for example, reasonably discuss the existence of an “unie” until we know what an “unie” is. If no intelligible description is forthcoming, the conversation must stop. Likewise, if no intelligible description of “god” is forthcoming, the conversation must stop. This critical atheist thus says, “The word ‘god’ makes no sense to me, so I have no idea what it means to state that ‘god’ does or does not exist.”
These varieties of critical atheism are identical in one important respect: they are essentially negative in character. The atheist qua atheist, whether implicit or explicit, does not assert the existence of anything; he makes no positive statement. If the absence of belief is the result of unfamiliarity, this nonbelief is implicit. If the absence of belief is the result of critical deliberation, this nonbelief is explicit. In either case, the lack of theistic belief is the core of atheism. The various atheistic positions differ only with respect to their different causes of nonbelief.
This book is written from the perspective of critical atheism. Its basic thesis is that the belief in god is entirely unsupported — and, further, that there are many reasons for not believing in a god. If theism is destroyed intellectually, the grounds for believing in a god collapse, and one is rationally obliged not to believe in a god — or, in other words, one is obliged to be atheistic.
In Stan’s case, the conversation must stop, because he is incoherent, rambling, and clearly irrational.
Doro says
Feel free to prove at anytime that your concept of a god-like figure is real. We’re open to the idea; we just haven’t experienced any actual evidence yet. Evidence We Would Consider: 1) The god figure itself showing up and proving it’s a god; 2) See #1.
Michael Bailey says
You are a dunce and a liar.
Raging Bee says
Ho hum. Like nearly all other Christian apologists, you deliberately and dishonestly misuse the word “faith,” which (in actual English) means belief without evidence. Atheism isn’t a belief without evidence, it’s the refusal to believe religious claims precisely because there’s no evidence to support them.
If you and your Christian friends don’t like being looked down on as ignorant and retarded, then by all means, stop acting ignorant and retarded.
Iain Shaw says
Why do religious people use “faith” as a smear against atheists? Isn’t faith supposed to be a compliment if you’re religious? So, either faith is bad, and you’re insulting atheists; or it’s good, and they’re good. Which is it?
As an atheist, I think it’s clear that faith is a bad thing, because faith is, by definition, belief without evidence. All religion is based on that. Atheism is the opposite. It’s not without evidence. It’s a conclusion based solely on evidence. There’s no evidence for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism being true, so I form a conclusion based on that evidence. No faith is required to dismiss those religions, or the worship of Thor, Zeus, Isis, and a thousand other religions. Christianity and the Jesus myth are also dismissed not on “faith”, but due to lack of evidence.
If you’re going to write about something, at least be clear on what central words like “faith” actually mean.
Thinking that atheists must be “angry” is just projection. You’re angry at atheists, so you assume they must be angry too. That tells us something about you, but not about atheists or atheism. What atheists in your country ARE angry about is how Christianity causes negative political and social effects in your country. That’s a legitimate thing to be angry about, just like how atheists in Muslim countries are angry about how that religion actually murders them (see: Bangladesh, etc) or makes non-religion a crime (see: pretty much the entire Muslim world).
If you stop hating and fearing atheists, and take a look at what they actually think and how they actually act, you’ll become a better person for it.
Jeffrey J says
Stan,
You have completely failed at getting me any closer to believing in a god. I am simply not convinced by any of the arguments or evidence brought to my attention.
Do you have anything other than a feeling shared by a friend or a huge argument from i don’t know how it all started, therefore my god is real?
Most atheists are “weak atheists” and don’t claim to know there is no god. But certainly anybody writing an essay on the matter would know that. Maybe you are being a bit disingenuous here? Seems like it to me.
From my perspective you seem to be asserting “Truth”, not us. You seem to be the angry one.
I know you are not really writing to convince us – you are simply pandering to the believers, and most of them will just agree with you and not even look at the comments.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
You are correct, I am not going to convince or convert you. But I am taking you to task for asserting that atheism is not a faith and that it does not require an act of faith to be one. Atheists are between a rock and hard place. One can believe one way or the other or decide not to decide. But it is still a faith no matter your protestations or “sophisticated” arguments to the contrary. Moreover, if wasn’t a faith, so many of you wouldn’t be so worked up about it. Changing your faith requires more power than I have. That’s why I pray for all of you.
Will any of what I said do any good? I hope so. But what I will not do is let you use your faith to destroy mine.
Keenan Wilkie says
Please explain, specifically, how not accepting your unsubstantiated claims regarding the supernatural as truthful is faith.
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
The word “Atheism” is an adjective; not a noun. It describes something; it is not a ‘name’. It is not a noun because it is not a religion. It is a description. We are trying to correct that misunderstanding you are having, but it seems to be what is known as a “confirmationial bias” for you. (I’ll let you look that one up on your own.)
I think that’s where you get all tripped up about it.
If it helps, replace Atheism with ‘Non-Believers’, which would be far more accurate anyway. Atheism only DESCRIBES a subset of non-belief; and ‘non-belief’ is actually the noun you are probably looking for.
For you see, those of us who are Non-Believers are quite aware that uninformed ‘believers”, those who have not taken the time to research and talk to us directly, civilly, and with mutual respect, tend to think of us in a light similar to how witches were perceived in the 1500’s, as “pure EVIL”. And we all now know how off that entire non-sense went. We also know this usually happens because today, those who look at us that way, do so out of the fear that is passed on to them by others, and not in a good way. Just another form of bigotry and prejudice. Same/Same practice, just another set of mis-information. (Your article seems to fall into that realm….)
Chantay Robinson says
How can someone not believing affect your faith? Is constant validation neccessary to maintain your faith?
I’m a pagan, I believe in the idea that if there is a God then God is manifested as female and male, that God is expressed by any culture or people in the best way needed for that culture to relate to their diety. I dont think God would care if someone doesn’t believe. I honor the belief systems of all gods and goddesses equally, base morality on the concept of ill or good to living peoples and life in general; and that which is neccessary for the good of any given majority. I dont care about sexuality beyond whether it is consensual, of age, and acceptable to the people involved… be it straight, gay, monogamous or polygamous… I doubt a God would care. Somehow I get along with theists and atheists, in large part because I have no need to push those ideals on them, nor do I need their approval to maintain my ideals. That’s the point of confusion, when you say they are trying to destroy your faith, are you speaking of the Christian dominance in our culture, the often redundant and constant public displays of your faith… or are you simply so shaky in your faith that their ideas being expressed causes you to doubt yours? How is it any less arrogant to say that there is only one correct path? How is a lack of faith, denoted by a lack of empirical evidence, a disturbing concept to you? Why is it alright to have your religion play so strongly into the rules and governance of a nation, yet Islam is bad for pursuing the same concept? And how is it that so many with that faith fail to realize that the majority of atheists simply wish to be left alone? Is it anything but natural to wish to spend time with others who have similar interests? You do I assume, with church.
I’ve never had a atheist knock on my door and tell me hell is waiting if I dont convert, is it really so hard to recognize that as an aggressive intrusion into another’s life? Why is prayer only effective if you hammer those for whom you pray?
KatieS says
“Moreover, if wasn’t a faith, so many of you wouldn’t be so worked up about it”
Excuse me? Who exactly wrote a letter to the editor? I think it was you. .
Jim Jones says
Gods are impossible. Jesus never existed. The bible is fiction from the first page to the last.
Religious faith is just wishful thinking.
Am I wrong? If so, where is your proof? What you or others ‘feel’ is no proof at all.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Proof? Apart from my witness I am not trying to prove anything though I am certainly trying to influence your thinking. Again, I’m pointing out that to believe that there is no God is a faith because it requires an act of faith to reach that conclusion. But you guys get all excited when you are called on your faith. Why? Do you view yourselves as iconoclasts proud to “think” differently from others? Or are you vain enough to believe you can skip the faith requirement and that you are above all that? You can’t. Or is it something else that motivates you?
Brian F says
I believe it is unlikely that Santa Claus,The Easter Bunny, Leprechauns, unicorns or ANY god exist, all because there is no evidence to support a belief in any of those supposed entities, Each may exist (who could know for sure). By your definition of “faith”, I have a near infinite number of faiths. There are SO MANY things I have no reason to treat as being real! Out of the pantheon of unseen and imaginary entities you have chosen one to elevate to the status of a hidden Super Being. Why? Why not Vishnu or the Muslim god? Billions of people believe in those and many other gods for the same reason you believe in yours, faith, belief without reason. When you can tell me why your God is Real and the others are not I may begin to understand the process you use to separate reality form wishful fantasy.
Nicole O. says
You are making the claim, so yes, you DO bear the burden of proving it. I thought that was just common sense.
Richard Carter says
Sorry Stanley,
You stated, ” Again, I’m pointing out that to believe that there is no God is a faith because it requires an act of faith to reach that conclusion.”
You have that all wrong. Remember, we don’t have any faith. If we don’t have any, how can we have “an act or faith”?
Maybe when you settle down a little bit and have a chance to think about it, all the pieces will sink in.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
On the contrary, you do have faith and it is very strong. You must believe that there is no God. Or you have decided not to decide. That requires an act of faith as I’ve pointed out how many times in these exchanges? You can’t just pretend that you don’t have any faith. It’s impossible. You won’t live long enough and are not smart enough to conclude anything any other way. As I’ve also pointed out a number of times. Now, maybe you ought to think about it and let all of the little pieces fall into place and the puzzle will be solved. Atheism is a faith. It’s a given.
Herp says
Atheism is defined as the lack of belief in god/gods.
Choosing to believe god does not exist is optional.
Case closed.
Ubi Dubium says
The only thing I have decided is that I don’t have enough reason to accept that your claims are correct. I don’t buy them. No faith required. Just as I don’t buy the claims of any other preacher who claims to know stuff about a god or gods, All of you disagree with each other, and have different opinions on what god is, what god is like, and what god wants from humanity. Until there’s reason to believe that one of you is more correct than the others, there’s no reason to believe any of you. If there’s a god up there, it’s pretty clear that random preachers yelling on the internet are not the way that a real god would choose to communicate the most important message ever.
Unless you somehow all got together and got your stories into agreement. But I’m not holding my breath, because that would be a miracle!
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
You also stated, “Do you view yourselves as iconoclasts proud to “think” differently from others? Or are you vain enough to believe you can skip the faith requirement and that you are above all that?”
What “faith requirement” are you talking about? Where did this ‘requirement’ come from? And for what purpose?
Again, there are billions upon billions of people who have not shared your faith. Have they or are they also non-fulfilling your requirement? If so, are they too not going to the heaven you believe in? Even though they lived loving, caring, giving lives?
Really??
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Here’s your logic. God does not exist. He does not, does not, does not, does not, does not. There. That settles that argument. I have to confess that I once believed there was no God. But along the way, I have had an attitude correction. Thankfully!
Thomas E.H. says
No. This is the logic, Stanley. Can I call you Stanley? Okay, Stan the Man it is. Here’s the logic, Stanley: “I have insufficient evidence to assert the existence of deities.”
You see, to believe there is no God/gods, is different than not believing in God/gods. One is an assertion of the non-existence of something. The other is recognition a lack of belief. No assertion one way or the other. Sure, there are gnostic atheists who claim to assert no existence in deities, but that’s not all atheists, Stanley.
KatieS says
“Last, I wonder what goes through an atheists mind as he or she approaches their last breath . I’ll bet most of you will be a little nervous entering eternity. You should be.
Stan”
Gee, who is a little angry? Stomp your feet some more that everyone doesn’t believe the same as you. Threats of hell don’t really work on a person that doesn’t believe in it. When I die I’m sure I will be fine with just not existing. Won’t bother me a bit. As I lay dying I’ll probably be annoyed that I haven’t read all the books I want to read. How about talking to an atheist and actually listening to them for once in your life. Practice some real love instead of “Christian” love.
George says
God gave us a brain, not just a dusty old book. Use it.
John says
NASA can calculate how much platinum is being produced by two colliding neutron stars a million light years away just by analyzing the light through a telescope, but science deniers don’t believe that they can analyze climate data on earth. The suppression of science will put us back into the dark ages if it is allowed to continue.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
On one hand some atheists and others claim Christians are anti-scientific. That is just plain silly. On the other hand, according to their “science”, a growing fetus can be killed with impunity since it is not yet a “viable” human being. In the so-called Christian scientific world, we wouldn’t be killing babies in the millions and millions. But according to your “scientific” science, that’s just fine. Some science that is.
Jim Jones says
Some argument that is.
——————————————————————————————————–
__ Abortion In the Netherlands __
In the Netherlands, abortion is freely available on demand. Yet the Netherlands boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, and the complication and death rates for abortion are minuscule. How do they do it? First of all, contraception is widely available and free — it’s covered by the national health insurance plan. Holland also carries out extensive public education on contraception, family planning, and sexuality. Of course, some people say that teaching kids about sex and contraception will only encourage them to have lots of sex. But Dutch teenagers tend to have less frequent sex, starting at an older age, than American teenagers, and the Dutch teenage pregnancy rate is 6 times lower than in the U.S.
——————————————————————————————————–
Are you doing this in your state? Does your state offer full, free, pre and post natal care to all mothers to be? If not, you are pro-abortion, not against it.
Planned Parenthood prevents more abortions and more late term abortions than all other groups in the US combined. Do you support them?
Or do you just like punishing women?
Stanley J Gudmundson says
What’s you point? You mean to tell me that murdering babies for sex is okay? Geez!
Jim Jones says
You are the one who wants more abortions than necessary. Why? Why not get them number to the lowest possible level? Misogyny?
Brian F says
Stan, we’re telling you that that you don’t have to chose between “killing babies” an having sex. That is one of the benefits of science, birth control You, your wife, your family can do as you please but you need to explain to me why Christians to everything they can to stand in the way of reducing unwanted pregnancies in people who aren’t any of your business to a minimum. Why is your solution always to punish people? I don’t think it is about babies. I can’t see that Christians as a group give a hoot about babies once they are born. It is about sex and controlling women. You care far more about control women than you do about abortion. You have a ready proven means of reducing abortions to a minimum and you do all you can to limit access.
Raging Bee says
Wow, thanks for confirming the allegation you try to deny.
KC R says
“according to their “science”, a growing fetus can be killed with impunity since it is not yet a “viable” human being. In the so-called Christian scientific world, we wouldn’t be killing babies in the millions and millions. But according to your “scientific” science, that’s just fine. Some science that is.”
Uhh, Stan. You do know that choosing to have an abortion, or not have one, has nothing to do with science, right? And laws that govern abortion also have nothing to do with science, right? You do know what science is, right?
Herp says
I don’t think he does :/
George says
I checked my comment and didn’t see anything about killing babies. Stop obsessing about abortion and concern yourself with feeding them after they are born.
Elizabeth Root says
Abortion, like Nazis, is always the last ditch argument, even if it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. You cannot know what all of us think.
I have told one of my Christian friends that I would respect the arguments against abortion more if so many people who oppose it didn’t also oppose contraception, make no exceptions for the health and life of the mother, didn’t shame unmarried women who go through with their pregnancy when they could have had an abortion and no-one would have known, and weren’t against providing good services for all children who have been born.
Hemant Mehta discussed your piece on his Friendly Atheist blog at Patheos under the heading: “This Essay Is the Worst Attempt at Converting Atheists I’ve Ever Seen.”
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
You wrote:
“On the other hand, according to their “science”, a growing fetus can be killed with impunity since it is not yet a “viable” human being. In the so-called Christian scientific world, we wouldn’t be killing babies in the millions and millions. But according to your “scientific” science, that’s just fine. Some science that is.”
Now you are mixing two very independent and unrelated issues. Are you saying that Atheists are the source of infanticide?
You do realize that many of those performing abortions and those asking for abortions are NOT Atheists, but in fact the majority of them describe themselves as Christians.
There is an alternative for abortion. That is sex education and birth control. Unfortunately, many Christian religions forbid both. You don’t see that as sharing in the causation of the problem? You can’t have it both ways.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Interesting but if the issues are unrelated, what would your answer be to the question of who would support and supports abortion? Atheists or Christians? Christians, no. But atheists? You know the answer. Whatever, humanism and all that stuff.
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
Please give us the source of your information that Atheists are in support of abortions. I I am sincerely interested in knowing where you are getting that from; who you are quoting; where you are drawing such facts that Atheists support abortions. Do you have citations we can check? Or, are you linking unsupported, unconfirmed, generalizations?
As the late Senator Moynihan once said, “You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts”. I very much hope you understand what he meant by that.
Please, provide us with your citations, some facts upon which you base that claim.
And remember, if you are claiming that “since Atheists defend science over religion, and science is the driver behind abortions, therefore Atheists support abortions”, you have a total misuse of logic. If you check, I think you will find many, many more good Christians than Atheists involved with abortions and any related work. Far more, both in number and percentages!!! So please, share with us the basis of your claims.
John Harrington says
Yeah, those atheists are so intolerant.
I get sick of atheists coming to my door trying to convert me to atheism. I get sick of seeing The God Delusion in every hotel room. I hate how they have to have their big capital “A” on everything, every street corner, hanging around their necks, on every mountaintop they can arrogate to their belief system. I hate how they corner me in the lunchroom and tell me I need Darwin in my life.
I hate how they put into law in almost every state that religious people can’t run for public office. I hate how they fought for decades to deny other people the right to marry. How they made people hide their sexuality or be fired or evicted … simply because they disagreed with it. How they even attempt to force their beliefs into people’s private medical decisions. I hate how atheists fly airplanes into buildings, fight for decades over what happens to a wafer on Sundays, and invade other lands and force the inhabitants to think like they do.
I hate how they put “In No God We Trust” on our money. I hate how they force my children to say “under no God” in a daily pledge. I hate how atheists routinely disown their children when they become religious and force them to live on the street … to the point that cities have to set up special programs just to deal with this problem. And I really hate how they tell everyone who disagrees with them that they deserve to be tortured forever.
Oh wait.
Richard Carter says
John,
You are an exceptional writer.
THANK YOU!
(May I use your response, please? I’ll give you credit when i do!)
guy ramsbottom says
Dear Stan,
Does santa exist?
I don’t believe Santa exists. Do you agree?
Is my assertion that Santa does not exist a belief?
How about unicorns?
Do we really have to say that dismissing something due to lack of any evidence is the same as believing it exists with the same lack of evidence?
Now what is someone claimed that Santa does exist, furthermore they know the thoughts of said Santa and that Santa disagrees with your actions and wants you to stop.
Would you have a problem with that?
Would you vocalize your issue of would you stay silent?
Would you sit back as laws were implemented on the basis of a subjective interpretation of a book that believers state contains the thoughts and ideas of their Santa?
Say Santa had a problem with your sexuality? Perhaps Santa has such an influence over laws that your very actions are criminalized.
Would you stand up then?
Or would you sit back?
It’s a genuine question.
Guy
Sara says
This is brilliant. Thank you.
Jim Jones says
Also Google (kissing hank’s *ss)
(replace the star)
David Quinn-Jacobs says
I forgot to address the issue of hubris raised by Mr. Gudmundson. Is it less hubristic to believe that one knows the mind and intent of a god than to simply claim that one sees no evidence for any belief? As Socrates taught, it is better to know the limits of our own knowledge.
“I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know.” Plato’s Apology.
Richard Carter says
David,
I’ve always enjoyed Plato’s Euthyphro. Appropriate to those reading this thread.
Thanks.
Ian Cooper says
“Atheists have a belief: There is no God (or gods.) – See Webster online for more on this.”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
“Definition of atheism
1 a : a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
b : a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods”
Lack of belief or disbelief is not a belief. Maybe you should look at your sources before you start pretending to know what they say.
Jeff Turner says
There are theists – agnostics – and atheists. Theist by definition have a belief: There is a God (or gods.) Agnostics have no belief. Atheists have a belief: There is no God (or gods.) – See Webster online for more on this.
The first and the last have a faith; that is, a belief without proof. You cannot prove that God is or is not; therefore, each of these is a faith.
It appears that the theists are at least honest about having a faith. Thoughts?
Ruaidhri says
“Atheists have a belief: There is no God (or gods.) – See Webster online for more on this.”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
“a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods”
You’ll see that atheism is really purely defined as the “lack of belief” in god(s) – as, logically, a “strong disbelief” can also be categorised as a sub-segment of those who ‘lack belief’ (they’re just more certain about it’s the correct position to hold). So ‘atheist’ is merely a way to term someone who, as yet, does not share the belief that deities exist. In other words, your position that atheists assert there is no god, and therefore have a faith, is false. Some do, some don’t. And, in my experience, the former also tend to do so simply because it appears to be evident that human beings have been mistakenly making this kind of stuff up for millennia, and are very likely to be wrong any time they continue to commit to such a belief.
Regarding the definition of “agnostic” – according to Merriam-Webster it can be defined as “a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable”.
In other words, ‘theist’ and ‘agnostic’, as well as ‘atheist’ and ‘agnostic’, are not mutually exclusive terms. Example: a person who holds that the existence of god is unknowable, but still either lacks belief or holds belief that he (or other deities) exists. One could be termed an ‘agnostic atheist’, while the other could be called an ‘agnostic theist’.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
You people fail simple logic. We all have three choices and three only. We individually must decide all by ourselves, with an act faith, that we 1. believe God exists or, 2. we believe God does not exist or, 3. we decide not to decide. That’s it. We have no other options, Zero, Nada, None. We must decide. Or decide not to decide.
You may write thousands of words and try to use all sorts of “logic and evidence” to counter this basic reality. But you can’t. I know it really ticks the true believer atheists off but that’s too bad. And atheism is faith because it requires an act of faith to conclude that God does or does not exist. Sophisticated semantics can not change that.
I majored in biology and minored in organic chemistry and took a number of courses in biochemistry. Trying to understand biochemical evolution runs into some very interesting conundrums for the theory. Evolution with no God involvement still boils down to faith. Two Sundays ago Mark Levin had supposedly one of the world’s premiere intellectuals on his program. The intellectual is not a believer but he maintains that the basis for evolutionary theory is anecdotal. I forget who this fellow was but he was impressive. Explain to him that the evidence is not anecdotal. You should be able to figure out who the guys is.
It’s also irritating that I and other Christians are looked down on as if we don’t understand and are intellectual retards. Wrong, very wrong.
Last, I wonder what goes through an atheists mind as he or she approaches their last breath . I’ll bet most of you will be a little nervous entering eternity. You should be.
Stan
Ian Cooper says
“We all have three choices and three only. We individually must decide all by ourselves, with an act faith, that we 1. believe God exists or, 2. we believe God does not exist or, 3. we decide not to decide.”
That’s two choices: belief or lack of belief in a god. Your choices 2 and 3 are both atheist positions.
As for who is nervous approaching eternity, why should I be nervous? All it is is nonexistence. As Mark Twain said, “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”
I suspect those who believe in the god of the Bible will be a lot more nervous. That god is a psychopath. But let’s face it – you folks are nervous for a different reason – that’s why you make up gods in the first place: you desperately want there to be life after death, but again, to quote Twain, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”. We know, thanks to science, that there is no consciousness after death, and you folks are so scared of that that you pretend there’s a “Sky Santa” who’s going to reward you with everlasting life.
David Quinn-Jacobs says
Stan, that leaves you with 3 choices for each of the thousands of deities proposed by the religious: (1) does the holy triumvirate of Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, the creators and sustainers of the world, exist, (2) does that holy triumvirate not exist, or (3) have you chosen not to decide? (1) Does Ahura Mazda exist, (2) not exist, or haven’t you decided? And so on. Your god is just one among many. The reason the so-called decision on your Christian god seems important to you is an accident of your birthplace and culture. There are no sophisticated semantics required to accept this.
Your last statement is reminiscent of Pascal’s Wager, a pragmatic rather than meaningful choice, in which one is supposed to believe because it is more costly to lose if one is wrong. But, like LaPlace, I am “so constituted that I cannot believe”, and that would be the fault of your god in making me that way. Further, a god that is supposedly all powerful, knowing and caring, yet who required my obeisance would be repugnant, and I would reject him on moral grounds. Is he so insecure and vain that he requires constant placation? What real choice are you saying we have: worship or else be tortured for eternity? The first three Commandments would have us believe that we have only such a false choice, believe or be tormented forever.
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:41-42
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God … he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:18, 36
What kind of monster is this Christian god? Oh, well, he is the same one that tortured and killed (sort of) someone on a cross so that some other people wouldn’t need to be responsible for their own actions. Just believe and you get a free pass.
Anyone who can step back and look at the Bible (and other religious scriptures) rationally can see that it is hugely contradictory and morally repugnant. The few uplifting nuggets, such as the golden rule and turn-the-other-cheek, preceded the time of Jesus, being stated by the Greeks, Babylonians and others. They are so outweighed by the cruft and reprehensible bits, that is is obvious to any impartial reader. That is why you may perceive that non-believers are looking down on you. It isn’t that you can’t think clearly, however, but that you are doing everything in your power not to.
With that said, you are of course free to believe whatever you wish, as long as it isn’t forced on others. If you can manage to get the Christians in this country to stop trying to pass laws that force others to adhere to your beliefs you would likely never hear from most of us again. Stop claiming exemptions from taxation for your churches. Stop requiring chaplains in the military to be believers. Rescind the laws of the 1950’s that added “under god” to the pledge of allegiance and required “in god we trust” to be on all currency. Don’t pressure our children by trying to establish prayer as the norm in public schools. Don’t post (the completely silly) 10 commandments on publicly funded property. The list goes on and on.
arensb says
I knew the threats would show up sooner or later.
“Nice soul you got there. Shame if anything was to… happen to it.”
Jim Jones says
> “Last, I wonder what goes through an atheists mind as he or she approaches their last breath . I’ll bet most of you will be a little nervous entering eternity. You should be.”
Ask a nurse. It’s commonly reported that skeptics approach death with acceptance or resignation while many theists (including it is claimed one pope) approach it in terror, afraid they haven’t done enough to appease their imagined ‘gods’.
Try to get a feeling for the size of the universe. Humans, this planet and the solar system are less than a dust mote in an abandoned warehouse. If gods were possible, we would be of no interest to them.
Richard Carter says
Usually by the time a dying person is at the point of last breaths, their minds have already shutdown. They aren’t thinking about much; it’s commonly known as ‘brain death’. Prior to that, assuming a natural cause death, there has been significant oxygen depletion. Hard to tell what areas have become dysfunctional and at which point in time; but my guess is that if the cognitive centers are still active, I would think they are more focused on concern over which functions have already stopped working and causing the autonomic system to sputter.
For me, I already know I’ve lived a great, rewarding life that included helping many others, improving their quality of life, getting my own share of love and a few laughs along the way. Could have been better at times, but overall, I have only a few complaints. I’m quite proud of how I lived my life. I always kept others in my plans, responsibilities, and goals. It is simply inconsequential that I don’t believe in a god or an afterlife. I had an opportunity at life and I worked it for the better. When I pass, my body goes to a well-known medical school not far from you; and when they have gained as much benefit from it as they can, the remains will be chemically cremated, and my name will be added to a plaque along with hundreds of others.
I iterate to you, free thinkers including atheists are not demons or without ethics, character or intent which serves their communities. We simply don’t believe in theologies. Each to their own. So please, stop maligning and accusing of us of being lesser individuals.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
You are not lesser people by any stretch of the imagination. We are all God’s creatures.
As for the process of death, you have experienced this have you and so you know what happens? Which brings me to a subject we haven’t addressed. Near death experiences.
There is more than one kind. In one, people describe a place of incomprehensible fear and terror.
The other is the exact opposite. I encountered a fellow once who seemed to have a sense of peace about him that stuck out. I asked him if he had had a near death experience. No, he said, I died.
I asked him to explain what happened. He did and when he was done, I mentioned that some believed it was a natural phenomenon that was not connected to eternity. He said that was wrong for two reasons. First, everyone he met on the other side were long dead old friends and relatives. Second, he said, I met my brother over there. Then, I didn’t know I had a brother. The details were interesting to say the least.
I asked why he didn’t stay on the “other side.” He told me that he didn’t want to leave but was sent back because his job on earth wasn’t yet done.
An atheist’s insistence that there is no God does not allow for even the possibility that they might be wrong. One really must have a very deep faith to be so obtuse.
Here is a challenge to prove your atheism is correct. Try it for 30 days. Pray the Lord’s Prayer every day for a month. Go to church each Sunday for that month. Some of you are and will be too vain to recognize or acknowledge the reality of God. Others of you will be surprised. Good Luck!
ThaneOfDrones says
“Two Sundays ago Mark Levin had supposedly one of the world’s premiere intellectuals on his program. The intellectual is not a believer but he maintains that the basis for evolutionary theory is anecdotal. I forget who this fellow was but he was impressive. Explain to him that the evidence is not anecdotal. You should be able to figure out who the guys is. ”
I’m guessing that would be David Berlinski, who appeared on Levin’s show on April 29, 2018. Since you can’t even remember the fellow’s name, are we supposed to take your word for it that he is “one of the world’s premiere intellectuals”? Having heard his arguments and read some of his writing, I would question that characterization. And I wouldn’t put any stock in his judgment of the evidence for the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. Berlinski is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture, a creationist belief tank. It is in Berlinski’s financial interest to question evolution; but if he actually found his own arguments convincing, he would be insane not to become a believer. Despite cashing his checks from the Discovery Institute, the leading promoter of “Intelligent Design” creationism, Berlinski was quoted in 2005 as saying, “I have never endorsed intelligent design.” (article by Robert S. Boyd, Oct 02, 2005, Knight-Ridder). BTW, no discussion of Berlinski is complete without an appearance of the word ‘supercilious.’
I have to conclude:
You have no clue about biology or evolution. You insist there are “conundrums” for evolutionary theory but cannot produce a single one.
You attempt to paint young earth creationists and theistic evolutionists as allies, despite their wildly different views on the age of the universe and the history of life on earth. If you want a conundrum, look into creationist considerations of isotope decay. If the earth were as young as they say, and the state of radioisotopes what they admit them to be, the earth would be glowing hot from the radioactive decay.
You are not a good judge of how impressive a person is or how convincing his arguments are, rather you speak favorably of whoever agrees with your position. This does not speak well for your integrity.
Hugh says
No, there is a fourth way, that is neither faith in one outcome or the other, nor a decision not to make a decision, and that is an examination of the probabilities involved according to the evidence, to reach a conclusion (not a decision) about which outcome is most likely.
Let us take as the null hypothesis the assertion that the god of the Christians exists, and is as described in the bible. What is the probability that this assertion is true? Well, it’s certainly not 50/50. The point about the laws of physics is that they describe everything in the universe. When we scientists find something that doesn’t conform, we acknowledge that physics is wrong (or at least incomplete, or only an approximation) and we work on a better description, which accounts for the anomaly. Science is always a work-in-progress, but it serves us well enough to be usable to achieve things. Claiming that supernatural beings exist and are able to override physics at will is just fanciful conjecture. It is overwhelmingly more likely that physics is on the right track (because there is plenty of evidence that it is) than that gods exist (for which there is no evidence).
Even if we were to accept that supernatural beings with these powers exist, there is zero evidence that they created the universe. In fact. current theories suggest strongly that this universe, and perhaps others, are capable of springing into existence spontaneously with no gods being necessary. And it is overwhelmingly more likely that multiple gods exist than only a single god exists, because there is no reason for and no proof of there being only one of them.
And even if we were to accept that only one god existed (it may, of course, not exist any more), there is absolutely nothing to say that it would be the Christian god as described in the bible. It is equally likely to be Allah, or Thor, or Poseidon, or Quetzalcoatl, or (even more likely than any of these) a god that is not described by any of mankind’s “sacred” texts. Man has so far invented over 3,500 different names for this being, and there’s nothing to suggest that any one of these descriptions is any more likely than any other. (The bible is not evidence of anything more than the existence of the bible.)
“But I’ve experienced god myself”, I hear you cry. Personal experience doesn’t qualify: you may think you have experienced a god first-hand, and I am not disputing that you may have had a “spiritual” experience of some sort, but it’s your labelling of it as divine that is the problem. The best you can say is that you experienced something which *you interpreted* as being god. Your interpretation cannot be regarded as evidence which would convince anybody else. And if your own experiences can’t qualify, then neither do anybody else’s experiences, however vivid and believable.
So, Stan, it is overwhelmingly unlikely that you are right, irrespective of whether or not atheists are right. The probability of you being correct are 1 in 3500, times the minute possibility that if gods exist there’s only one of them, times the infinitesimal chance that gods exist at all (they are not needed to explain the universe). In short, the probability that you are right is so vanishingly small that, for all practical purposes, it is zero, nada, zip. You might cling to your beliefs still, but you’re on a hiding to nothing.
And this is why atheism isn’t a faith. You’re buying a lottery ticket in the certain hope that your number will come up. We pragmatic atheists are looking at the miniscule odds of winning, and not buying a lottery ticket at all because it’s simply not worth the cost of the ticket.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Nah, you assume that you know enough to conclude that the odds of God’s existence is too low. You don’t and you will never know enough and trying to find answers through “science” for a question that cannot and will be never answered in science is a fools errand.
As for personal experience not qualifying? Maybe not for you but it sure does for me.
Herp says
The way statistics work, is you examine all the possibilities, and invert it, giving you the percentage.
Number of possible gods? Theoretically you could make up an infinite amount of them.
1/infinity = 0.
Stanley J Gudmundson says
Your conclusion is based on what hard scientific evidence again? Oh, it’s an assertion. I see. Yeah, that goes a long way in proving your point.
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
You werote:
“You people fail simple logic. We all have three choices and three only. We individually must decide all by ourselves, with an act faith, that we 1. believe God exists or, 2. we believe God does not exist or, 3. we decide not to decide. That’s it. We have no other options, Zero, Nada, None. We must decide. Or decide not to decide.”
You writing the rules now?
You’re the only one here that believes your silliness regarding choice. I think you are trying to elevate yourself to the power of your god.
Simpler logic, and therefore “simple logic” would suggest only two choices: To believe or not to believe.
You just seem to believe you can impose on others. Not your place.
Richard Carter says
Stanley,
I think you keep mixing up the word ‘faith’ with ‘trust’, or maybe even ‘hope’.
JLM says
“Concrete evidence” which cannot be revealed is no evidence at all. Back to the drawing board, Mr. Gudmundson.
David Quinn-Jacobs says
Stan, you should take the time to understand atheists better. As the previous comment mentioned, there is no belief to discuss, merely its absence. We are not (usually) proselytizing, Currently, we are defending our families from the dominant religious culture that is forcing its belief system on us. Whether it is trying to determine who we can love and marry, whether we have a choice about abortion, or if we are subjected to unwanted prayer in government institutions, it is a constant pressure with which we have to deal. Few of us have any issues at all with what religious believers wish to believe, in their private lives. But the current push to control our lives is as immoral as it is unacceptable.
Your understanding of what constitutes hard science is sadly lacking. There is a great deal of hard science behind the science of evolution, including biology, physics, chemistry and math. There are certainly many unknowns, as you say, but that in no way indicates the existence of a deity, much less a personal deity. If one uses cosmological or teleological arguments for the existence of a god, one is left with an empty shell of a word, “God”, that is simply a restatement of the original question. If such a god existed, it would be asking the same questions regarding its origins that we ask, with no more of an answer.
If it is an act of faith for me not to believe in Zeus, or a tea pot orbiting a planet somewhere in Alpha Centauri, or your particular deity, then that meaning of the word faith is essentially lost.
I believe what you and others perceive as “anger and hatred” is often self-inflicted. When one is uncertain of his or her own beliefs, one often sees the messenger of truth as hostile and aggressive. Generally speaking, the only anger that atheists might have stems from being pressured by the dominant (in our case, Christian) culture.
I wish you well, and hope that you can take a step back and see us in a new light.
Sara says
Unfortunately, you have a misguided perception of atheism. Atheism is not a faith, but lack thereof. I also know that there are good and bad in each group of people (believers of Christianity vs. atheists). Both sides are guilty of ‘pushing’ their belief onto the opposite. To say one does and not the other would be ignorant. However, as a the Christian person you claim to be, kill them with kindness. Instead of judging and trying to shame someone for not being a Christian, kindly smile and move on with your day. It’s interesting how an atheist (me) can see the power in that, but it seems that you cannot.
Nick says
When was the last time an atheist knocked on your door to tell you about the non-existence of god? We don’t push our position, we defend it.
Jim Jones says
John Safran Atheist door knocking skit – YouTube – U58wgn-9Y3c
peg says
Exactly!